Robert_J_King
Royal Impact Style
I JUST bought a Star Wars edition Xbox last november! Damn Microsoft...
Ugh...
Ugh...
Xbox One Discussion
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Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
no, thats not why im upset. you want to hear how it really is? im upset because DRM will disable me from playing my games 10-20 years down the road. im also upset for the fact that DRM is even there, because it basically means that i am RENTING the game, not owning it, which defeats the purpose of buying the game in the first place. I'm also upset because i dont want some company dictating to me how i should use THEIR product. i'm also upset that i cant lend games to my friends and buy used games yes, but thats 1 small thing out of the big issue, which is DRM, which caused all of this in the first place. I'm upset about alot more things with this console as well, but DRM is the main deal breaker - truly DRM is an act of greed. they don't want to let people do what they want with their own products. certainly PC titles arent resellable, but not all of them have DRM either. Once you put DRM on consoles, you pretty much defeat the purpose of owning a console in the first place, especially since this next generation uses PC architecture. I would have been able to look past everything else - the kinnect, the TV, whatever, but the DRM destroys the experience. Microsoft has also patented the ability to have DRM on the kinnect when watching movies, where it will count how many bodies are in the room, and if there are too many it will ask you to pay a fee - are you kidding me? if thats not company greed, then i dont know what is.
Certainly sony is doing that for PS4, but that doesnt mean that i also cant just go out and buy another PS3 if mine craps out. it also doesnt mean that i cant continue to use my PS3 well after the PS4 is out - sony is just offering the option incase people decide they dont want to keep around their PS3, which is perfectly fine and all, but i like my retail game copies, and i like owning the right to own my games. so i'll keep my PS3 and still play all my PS3 games on it, and then i'll buy a PS4, buy all retail copies of any PS4 games i have, and keep it going just as i have my PS3. then when PS5 comes out, assuming there's no DRM, i'll be able to do the same for my PS4 games. in the end everything works out great.
Once you take away the ability to OWN the games you OWN, there's no reason to buy a console anymore - you'd might as well buy a PC. I've explained these things multiple times earlier in the thread. Dont tell us that we're only whining because we're cheap - thats kind of insulting, and it implies that you havent read the rest of the thread to begin with.
Ishimaru Jinrai
[10] Knight
PC games have been like that for years, and people stopped complaining. Besides you still OWN your games because they have been installed to your profile and console. So they belong to you, and if you want to share with a friend, download your profile at their house / Xbox console and all the content is unlocked, just like how I do it when I want to play an arcade game bought on another Xbox which belongs to my sibling.
Games on the Xbox Marketplace are the SAME way, so I don't know why you're upset. You pay money for a virtual code, which gives you the exclusive rights to that content purchased. Slayer is it suddenly such a big deal? You will still be able to buy games at discounts, I guarantee they'll still have discounts.
This whole "Xbox One" used game sales discussion is a perpetual argument made by people who mainly rely on buying games used. So who really cares about those cheap players anyways? I see on gamefaqs people all the time say "This game looks really good, but I'll wait 3 months and get it used" and Used games don't give the developer any money, only the initial sale. So in other words, I'd much rather download-only games and give developers money, rather than listen to the whines and moans of entitled gamers who rarely buy anything new anyways. To those players I just say "Too bad you can't get a 50 million dollar budget game for $10 anymore."
Norik
[14] Master
I strongly disagree. NO OTHER industry has complained about this common legal practice called the cost of doing business. Imagine if Ford wanted a cut every time you sold your used F-150, or you couldn't access the hidden tracks on a CD if you bought it used. I like to support them when I can and buy new but most games aren't worth $60 IMO. They have special editions, DLC, and online passes (which is another BS thieving tactic) to make even more money. The audacity of game companies of thinking they are entitled to a sum of money every time a game trades hand is outrageous. It's your game, which you bought with your money. You should be able to do whatever you want with it.
EDIT: And just for the record, not everyone bitching is a PC gamer (I, for instance, am not).
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
uh no, PC games have not been like that for years - not all modern PC games have DRM. certainly PC games have had CD keys for years, but that is entirely different from what DRM does - i can re-install that CD key on all of the computers i own so long as i never try to take more than one online at a time, DRM makes it so they can choose when and how i get to use the service period. no thanks. read earlier in the thread and you will see why DRM changes the definition of owning a video game.
as i said before, EARLIER IN THIS THREAD i do not buy games from digital download because of DRM - i only buy retail copy's so that i can retain full ownershi rights. you want to know why im upset? i just explained it to you in clip notes, but tbh i would prefer you read EARLIER IN THIS THREAD to see why i care. i dont care about discounts i care about having control over the media i purchase.
its not just about used games though because it will effect us long term. i wont be able to use a DRM riddled product 10-20 years down the line. also theres nothing wrong with buying a game used. theres also no way that a used game should cost full price of a retail game, given its used condition. at least they are still buying the game, rather than pirating it. so again, if its about developers just wanting to make more money, then its STILL about greed. i will never buy download only games because they die, when the console dies, or when your access to the online service dies. remember there wouldnt be used games in the first place if nobody bought the game, so developers are making money.
let me post something for you here:
POST#1:
not if the console doesnt support it. if you own the actual physical console, and the actual physical games, even 20 or 30 years down the road when your games dont work, and your console is all broke down, so long as the games dont support DRM, you are legally within your rights to emulate the titles and consoles that you own.
DRM basically limits the lifespan of these games to maybe, 8 years? and then we're expected to move on to whatever the new "thing" is at the time. But i know i for one, still play all my PS1 games, PS2 games, N64 games, Gamecube Games, Xbox games, all my SNES games, and i even still play the few NES games that i own still(i had to buy another NES because mine kicked the bucket, but i do still play these games) and i still own all of the physical machines as well.
i still play MS-DOS games that my dad owns on floppy, even though DOS doesnt exist anymore outside of virtual machine or emulation(though DOS is free now, through use of FREEDOS)
and i remember we even have sat down on multiple occasions playing old commadore 64 titles that we have sitting in a box downstairs.
I did an entire playthrough of Diablo1 which was made for x86 based PC's recently and put it up on youtube - thankfully that game has remained compatible with 64bit operating systems for the time being with only a few minor tweaks required to get it running perfectly. once 32bit compatibility is dropped, even though i own the physical disc, i'll have to emulate it too.
DRM destroys all of this. but buying a closed system limits you to the copy protection of the games so that you have to own the console to play it, which it should otherwise everybody would run crazy, rip all the CD's and download everything, BUT that doesnt mean that it takes away your rights as an owner of said game so that you cannot play it say, 20-30 years down the road. and i for one, dont want to own a bunch if useless plastic donuts(discs) after only about 8 years of enjoyment.
and besides that there is DRM on PC as well. look at EA's Origins, or even steam to a lesser extent. I also believe the PC version of skyrim enforces DRM, whereas the console versions do not.
certainly i suppose you could say that consoles enforce a minor form of DRM with the copy protection blocking out modded content, and yes i can understand that, its a valid point. no system is perfect. but excluding mods, even being able to play those games which we covet so dearly is what the main focus here. and sadly even when we can still play all our old games, we will lose all of our DLC because servers will be down, yatta yatta. but at least we still have the game.
eventually 20 years down the road, my PS3's and XBOX 360's will be rust buckets, but if i keep them around, i can still play my games. thanks to the help of a PC of course, but they are still my games, games i spent my hard earned money on, and i have every right to play them.
basically i guess what im trying to say here, is this isnt about PC does it better(PC does everything better), this is about flat out having the games period. if this sort of DRM type deal actually does take over consoles, how long do you think it will be before it happens to PC? luckily there are ways around it for PC users, because a PC is so very versatile, but once you get into the gray area of buying and then "cracking" games, then piracy becomes the spotlight issue. thats not something i'm going to address here.
honestly the PS4 controllers dont look bad either. and since PS4 is essentially a PC i imagine the controllers would probably be compatible through generic PC drivers anyways(even if its not somebody will make some like with PS3). rather than support microsofts new system by buying their controllers i'd just buy some PS4 controllers for my PC to use. i've always liked sony's dpad better anyways.
POST#2
at least from my perspective this isnt an over reaction. not only is it the future direction of gaming, its also my future career.
im not sure you know entirely what you're talking about here
first of all SCV was developed in a very short amount of time, and its easy to come to the conclusion that its rushed. certainly we're not all happy about it, i can count myself in that group, but one thing that everybody on this site pretty much can attest to is we're all grateful we even got a new Soul Calibur game period, since namco wasnt going to make one to begin with. certainly we complain and certainly it could be better, but at least it is there.
Microsoft isnt trying to please everybody here. microsoft is trying to make money - their intentions should be pretty obvious, i mean look at who they're teaming up with? EA. one of the greediest companies in the world.
What microsoft wants to do is cator to everybody. but they forgot one group, and thats the most important group. they forgot the gamers. they left us and hung us out to dry. imo we have every right to be unhappy about it. its destroying the world of gaming as we know it(perhaps not destroying but definitely having a majorly negative effect on it.
Let me ask you this: I have been gaming for over 18 years. i have played more games in my life than most people have ever seen. I am a very independant person who thinks for themself, and often goes against the flow, even under heavy criticism. I have played great games and horrible games alike, and I have lived my life by gaming. By choosing my career I have also devoted my life to enhancing and bringing more to the gaming experience. So how am I incompetent? Where is it anybody elses position to decide what is good for me?
Really I take great offense to your statement. Let me tell you some things about the market, us as consumers, and us as members of this conversation. We as the consumer have the RIGHT to demand more for our money. If we dont like something, we take our money to something else that satisfies us. In this case, XBOX does not satisfy us, so we will probably go to PS4. We partake in this conversation because we care, because this is a major part of our life being affected and we feel the need to take the initiative and talk about it. We are compitent and we are trying to preserve what is good with us. Really just because we dont think what a coorporation wants us to think does not mean we are wrong. If you never spoke out about something in your entire life, if you never cared about anything you would be nothing more than a human cattle. What seperates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, is opposable thumbs, combined with the ability to ask questions.
In this particular situation we are using our abilities of perception to try and determine where this will take our future, and how our experience will suffer, and i can tell you that most of us have come to the conclusion that the result is quite negative. Certainly, if you want to go ahead and support microsoft, then go do it. but you dont exactly have a right to come in here and tell us what we can and should think, now do you? Newer =/= better. in the case of the PS4 it probably will be better, but microsoft has essentially alienated the hardcore gamers, even though that is what they built their console based empire off of to begin with.
!
these two here are able to put into words better than i could ever. they are far more charasmatic, and they have a better command of the english language. If you want to know where we're coming from, watch these. But please dont tell us what we should think - for all you know we could feel the exact same way about you, but in order to keep things civil we refrain from saying such.
People are here to voice their concerns. Why dont we let them do that peacefully? If you're satisfied with microsofts work, then please pay no mind to us.
POST#3
Please read my green text. I have addressed your points accordingly.
POST#4
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#5
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#6
no backwards compatible is confirmed. xbox one and xbox360 use two different architecture types.
its not about the new features though, its about the DRM, and the non-game centric focus. tbh playing games isnt supposed to be the same old shit, it is supposed to be an "evolved experience" brought to us by the next generation of consoles, and with the amount of restrictions they are placing on gamers, the gaming market, ect its really just not worth it. and seeing as both consoles are practically identical hardware wise i'd really just rather grab a PS4 and not have to deal with this DRM garbage.
really those features to gamers just take a backseat, and sure while they're there people will use them, but its called a gaming console for a reason - it does gaming. just like your phone is a phone for a reason - it makes calls. they can all do all the same things as eachother to a lesser extent, but each one has a primary purpose.
Also think of it this way HRD. you buy a game, and want to play it. so you get home and play it. thats fine and all. but then HRJ decides he wants to play the game. well you have to pay the full price of the game a second time just so that he can play the game he wants to play unless you want him to play on your live account. Or you could get a PS4 and not have to compromise.
I dont understand what point you were trying to prove with this statement.
Other post:
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
http://kotaku.com/xbox-exec-if-you-re-backwards-compatible-you-re-real-509340172
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
They done fucked up.
Norik, May 22, 2013
POST#6:
well the others have already touched up on the rest pretty well, so i suppose i'll just touch up on this last point here:
basically because of DRM the game must be connected to the internet to be activated for installation, even though you may or may not be able to play the game online afterwards. Some games require that you be connected to the servers at all times to play even singleplayer(a prime example would be the new sim city, or Diablo3) and basically in the end what will essentially happen is once the games become too old, when the console is at or past the end of its lifespan by a bit, the servers will all be shut down and you will no longer be able to play all the games you paid for - they then pretty much become nothing more than useless pieces of plastic. for games that dont require an internet connection outside of the initial install, the issue becomes, what if 10 or 15 years down the road your console gives out, so you buy a new one but the authentication servers are down? then you cant ever re-install your game ever again, which means you just bought another xbox one(probably used and well past its lifespan) for no reason. now you're stuck with a perfectly good machine thats useless, and perfectly good games that are useless, because of DRM.
so basically with an xbox one, your games are guaranteed for the life of the console(between 5-8 years i would guess) and then after that, when they move on to the next console, should they choose not to have backwards compatibility and support your old games, your old games become useless.
on top of that the new xbox only comes with a 500GB HDD, so you can probably pretty much be guaranteed that you will need online authentication, storage or the like just to cope with the massive amounts of file sizes you will be installing onto it, just because this is how microsoft planned it all out.
POST#7:
well really thats debatable. its almost as if microsoft wants to monopolize how gamers play their games, and i know that will be a big turn off for alot of people, including me. and if its graphics and the like you are after, well the PS4 and the XBOX ONE literally have pretty much identical hardware, so if you grab a PS4, you'd be getting all the good stuff that an XBOX ONE has, and none of the bad stuff(ie none of the monopolization of how we play our games)
POST#8
well i looked up my local hardware store, and not including OS i was able to build a PC with the same specs and a Better GPU, higher clocked octa core CPU, with a 1TB HDD compared to a 500GB HDD, for about $900.87 USD, which also includes the 750W powersupply(you dont need that much juice) i put into it to make sure you have enough power for all your overclocking needs. with a 500GB HDD the same machine is $891.23 USD. and if you want to include operating system(you could just install linux, which is free and costs nothing, but windows for now, is a bit better for gaming. you're doing gaming, so you neednt anything fancy - even win7 home premium should do) you can get something slightly better than the consoles(higher proc clock speed, and same specs as everything else)with overclocking as an option for for $900.86 USD, and it wouldnt be restricted like a console is.
and if you really dont want a 750W powersupply(tbh you really probably dont need that much juice) you could easily save AT LEAST $20-30, and have extra money to put even more power into your machine. also dont forget that computer parts go on sale all the time, so you might even be able to easily pull this build off for $800 USD, or even build something stronger than what i fleshed out for $900 USD.
also keep in mind i live in canada, sometimes things are more expensive here. that means that on top of all this you could be paying even less yet again. and the benifit of a PC is if it ever does for whatever reason become obsolete you can just gut the parts out of it and upgrade them as you need them to be stronger anyways.
of course point being again, people shouldnt have to run to PC just to get a decent gaming experience. i mean why bother with gaming consoles otherwise? thats why im looking to PS4 for their take on next gen.
POST#9:
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
OTHER POST
ChaosK, Thursday at 7:27 AM
POST#10:
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
POST#11:
And just because fighting games and the like dont come out frequently on PC now doesnt mean they wont ever. With how similar the architecture between consoles and PC's are next gen, I really wouldnt be suprised if EVERYTHING is tripple cross platform between XBOX ONE, PS4 and PC, just like I wouldnt be surprised if PC games became widely windows AND linux compatible by looking at how things are currently going with steam(not saying I like steam).
EDIT: MERGING MY OWN POST
I believe that would be their official answer. That doesnt mean AT ALL that they intend to impose fees on people. And if they WERE planning on it now, I bet they arent anymore.
POST#11:
well no it doesnt, and we never said it did. its just that if XBOX ONE(and later if sony actually makes the foolish decision to go out and follow them) it will essentially make buying a console pointless, when if you've gotta pay THAT kind of money, you could just dish out an additional few hundred bucks and build yourself a monster PC. without the ability to borrow and buy used games, there's practically no difference between PC and consoles, and PC's still, even with all of consoles fancy features nowdays, are still capable of more. I believe they call the ability to buy and borrow used games, the "console advantage" btw. to be able to have that advantage encompasses all of the reasons i would buy a PS4, and one of the reasons i wont buy an XBOX ONE, with the other being the long term negative effects of DRM. I've already got a monster gaming PC, i dont need a second, less capable and more restricted one. The worst part is not everybody has the option to go to PC like I do however, and I dont feel that they should be FORCED to compromise and comply, but looking at the price of consoles, if sony follows this route(which i doubt they will at this point, seeing how bad things are going for microsoft), it'll pretty much be just as cheap in the longterm to just build yourself a rig. that way not only do you have all in one entertainment - you have an all in one work machine, and you have a machine where you can customize every single part of it to your preference. Thats something consoles cant do.
POST#12:
POST#13:
POST#14:
EDIT: this isnt directly related to XBOX, but it also helps clarfy the image of why DRM is bad. DRM quite literally, is like renting: http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/amazon-account-ban-reminds-us-drm-content-is-only-rented/
which actually adds another point - should your xbox live account get banned(most likely deservingly, but not always the case) you would also lose access to ALL of the games you rightfully paid for and own, only to have to buy them all again behind a microsoft paywall.
basically DRM lets them tell you how and when you're gonna use your product, and if they dont like you for any reason at all, they can revoke your rights to use that product indefinitely, and in most cases it would force you to buy it again. and of course buying DRM content only supports the system of DRM in itself.
now idk about you, but i want executive control over my purchase. would you like it if you say for example, bought a bed, and then you had some fancy business exec tell you when and how you could sleep on your bed? and say, he didnt like your shoes, and he suspected they could scuff up the bed even though you probably wouldnt ever sleep in bed with shoes on anyways, he could take away your bed entirely, and make you sleep on the floor. doesnt that seem a bit ridiculous? and if you ever wanted a new bed you'd have to buy a brand new bed entirely.
POST#15:
POST#16:
POST#17:
DRM says no, its not more than core. I think that our anger and our disappointment is completely justified simply because of the existence of DRM on this machine. Even if it had been an all in one console regardless, the DRM was truly the icing on the cake. I dont feel they have the gamers as an audience, or they've at least split their audience in half simply because of that one thing. I can even appreciate this guys point of view, and I see where he's coming from, but DRM is just...an absolute NO. You could have done almost anything else, and as angered as I would be about it, I would have eventually probably been able to look past it if it were not for the DRM. Its a deal breaker.
"I think that we as gamers, would do ourselves a great service,"...to fight DRM. "Microsoft and Sony, would be absolutely stupid" to push DRM.
Game consoles are game centric systems about gaming, for gamers - they can certainly do other things now days and its been proven by todays consoles, but gaming is the main purpose and as it rightfully should be. When that stops being so, then they arent gaming consoles anymore, and I may as well just go back to my PC, because that can do everything, and it can do everything better.
But oh well. Industry flops happen. Perhaps we're long past due for another one by now.
POST#18:
POST#19:
POST#20:
i use green text because it strains the eyes less than bright red or yellow lol. although you might be on 8way's light theme, in which case, all of my favorite bright colors will burn your eyes anyways XD
and it still has to be linked to your XBL account either way, which still requires an internet connection at install, and is still DRM. im not reading into want i want to see, im just looking at whats there. and all this does is open the doors for more potential DRM.
OTHER POST:
not if the console doesnt support it. if you own the actual physical console, and the actual physical games, even 20 or 30 years down the road when your games dont work, and your console is all broke down, so long as the games dont support DRM, you are legally within your rights to emulate the titles and consoles that you own.
DRM basically limits the lifespan of these games to maybe, 8 years? and then we're expected to move on to whatever the new "thing" is at the time. But i know i for one, still play all my PS1 games, PS2 games, N64 games, Gamecube Games, Xbox games, all my SNES games, and i even still play the few NES games that i own still(i had to buy another NES because mine kicked the bucket, but i do still play these games) and i still own all of the physical machines as well.
i still play MS-DOS games that my dad owns on floppy, even though DOS doesnt exist anymore outside of virtual machine or emulation(though DOS is free now, through use of FREEDOS)
and i remember we even have sat down on multiple occasions playing old commadore 64 titles that we have sitting in a box downstairs.
I did an entire playthrough of Diablo1 which was made for x86 based PC's recently and put it up on youtube - thankfully that game has remained compatible with 64bit operating systems for the time being with only a few minor tweaks required to get it running perfectly. once 32bit compatibility is dropped, even though i own the physical disc, i'll have to emulate it too.
DRM destroys all of this. but buying a closed system limits you to the copy protection of the games so that you have to own the console to play it, which it should otherwise everybody would run crazy, rip all the CD's and download everything, BUT that doesnt mean that it takes away your rights as an owner of said game so that you cannot play it say, 20-30 years down the road. and i for one, dont want to own a bunch if useless plastic donuts(discs) after only about 8 years of enjoyment.
and besides that there is DRM on PC as well. look at EA's Origins, or even steam to a lesser extent. I also believe the PC version of skyrim enforces DRM, whereas the console versions do not.
certainly i suppose you could say that consoles enforce a minor form of DRM with the copy protection blocking out modded content, and yes i can understand that, its a valid point. no system is perfect. but excluding mods, even being able to play those games which we covet so dearly is what the main focus here. and sadly even when we can still play all our old games, we will lose all of our DLC because servers will be down, yatta yatta. but at least we still have the game.
eventually 20 years down the road, my PS3's and XBOX 360's will be rust buckets, but if i keep them around, i can still play my games. thanks to the help of a PC of course, but they are still my games, games i spent my hard earned money on, and i have every right to play them.
basically i guess what im trying to say here, is this isnt about PC does it better(PC does everything better), this is about flat out having the games period. if this sort of DRM type deal actually does take over consoles, how long do you think it will be before it happens to PC? luckily there are ways around it for PC users, because a PC is so very versatile, but once you get into the gray area of buying and then "cracking" games, then piracy becomes the spotlight issue. thats not something i'm going to address here.
honestly the PS4 controllers dont look bad either. and since PS4 is essentially a PC i imagine the controllers would probably be compatible through generic PC drivers anyways(even if its not somebody will make some like with PS3). rather than support microsofts new system by buying their controllers i'd just buy some PS4 controllers for my PC to use. i've always liked sony's dpad better anyways.
POST#2
at least from my perspective this isnt an over reaction. not only is it the future direction of gaming, its also my future career.
im not sure you know entirely what you're talking about here
first of all SCV was developed in a very short amount of time, and its easy to come to the conclusion that its rushed. certainly we're not all happy about it, i can count myself in that group, but one thing that everybody on this site pretty much can attest to is we're all grateful we even got a new Soul Calibur game period, since namco wasnt going to make one to begin with. certainly we complain and certainly it could be better, but at least it is there.
Microsoft isnt trying to please everybody here. microsoft is trying to make money - their intentions should be pretty obvious, i mean look at who they're teaming up with? EA. one of the greediest companies in the world.
What microsoft wants to do is cator to everybody. but they forgot one group, and thats the most important group. they forgot the gamers. they left us and hung us out to dry. imo we have every right to be unhappy about it. its destroying the world of gaming as we know it(perhaps not destroying but definitely having a majorly negative effect on it.
Let me ask you this: I have been gaming for over 18 years. i have played more games in my life than most people have ever seen. I am a very independant person who thinks for themself, and often goes against the flow, even under heavy criticism. I have played great games and horrible games alike, and I have lived my life by gaming. By choosing my career I have also devoted my life to enhancing and bringing more to the gaming experience. So how am I incompetent? Where is it anybody elses position to decide what is good for me?
Really I take great offense to your statement. Let me tell you some things about the market, us as consumers, and us as members of this conversation. We as the consumer have the RIGHT to demand more for our money. If we dont like something, we take our money to something else that satisfies us. In this case, XBOX does not satisfy us, so we will probably go to PS4. We partake in this conversation because we care, because this is a major part of our life being affected and we feel the need to take the initiative and talk about it. We are compitent and we are trying to preserve what is good with us. Really just because we dont think what a coorporation wants us to think does not mean we are wrong. If you never spoke out about something in your entire life, if you never cared about anything you would be nothing more than a human cattle. What seperates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, is opposable thumbs, combined with the ability to ask questions.
In this particular situation we are using our abilities of perception to try and determine where this will take our future, and how our experience will suffer, and i can tell you that most of us have come to the conclusion that the result is quite negative. Certainly, if you want to go ahead and support microsoft, then go do it. but you dont exactly have a right to come in here and tell us what we can and should think, now do you? Newer =/= better. in the case of the PS4 it probably will be better, but microsoft has essentially alienated the hardcore gamers, even though that is what they built their console based empire off of to begin with.
People are here to voice their concerns. Why dont we let them do that peacefully? If you're satisfied with microsofts work, then please pay no mind to us.
POST#3
Please read my green text. I have addressed your points accordingly.
POST#4
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#5
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#6
no backwards compatible is confirmed. xbox one and xbox360 use two different architecture types.
its not about the new features though, its about the DRM, and the non-game centric focus. tbh playing games isnt supposed to be the same old shit, it is supposed to be an "evolved experience" brought to us by the next generation of consoles, and with the amount of restrictions they are placing on gamers, the gaming market, ect its really just not worth it. and seeing as both consoles are practically identical hardware wise i'd really just rather grab a PS4 and not have to deal with this DRM garbage.
really those features to gamers just take a backseat, and sure while they're there people will use them, but its called a gaming console for a reason - it does gaming. just like your phone is a phone for a reason - it makes calls. they can all do all the same things as eachother to a lesser extent, but each one has a primary purpose.
Also think of it this way HRD. you buy a game, and want to play it. so you get home and play it. thats fine and all. but then HRJ decides he wants to play the game. well you have to pay the full price of the game a second time just so that he can play the game he wants to play unless you want him to play on your live account. Or you could get a PS4 and not have to compromise.
SB, SC1, SC2 and SC3 run great on my PC. in another 10 years so will SC4 and SC5. and if they release SC6 with PC compatibility on next gen, it will work immediately. and looking at how similar the architecture is between console and PC they might just do that. you never know.
I dont understand what point you were trying to prove with this statement.
Other post:
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
wait wait wait....I have a few questions.
#1. what is DRM and why is that so important? (just plain ignorance please forgive me)
#2. So what your saying is, that if I buy a game. I play it under "HRD". Then HRJ wants to playit under his account, he will not be able to unless I buy the game again? Even if I bought 2 xbox 1's I cant take the disc from one console to another and I wouldnt be able to do that either?
Ive said before if thats the case....they will end major companies like GameStop and anywhere else that sells used games. That would be a huge shame. On top of that what Im getting from you is that I might be only able to play the game for a certain period of time?
OK if thats for real, then fuck xbox.
I remember when I fist got a 360, the thing only comes with one controller, so I had to buy another one, then batteries. I needed to buy a charger and rechargable batteries. Then I felt like I was just getting taken for a ride, cause I had to pay to play online, etc etc.
I sense that microsoft is up to the same shit. I really hope thats not the case and we are looking at things wrong.
#1 DRM is Digital Rights Management. In other words, it's online passes and activation codes; things that prevent you from reusing or sharing your disc. With Xbox One, they're talking about locking your disc activation to your singular account. If someone else wants to play, they either have to use your account to play it, or buy the game at shelf price to activate it on their own account. So, in this situation, if you wanted to buy a used game to get it cheaper, you'd actually ending up paying more: paying a reduced price for the used disc, and then paying full price for activation.
I believe that answers #2 as well.
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
Still wanting to know if this "no backwards" shit is confirmed or just an internet rumor.
Not only did the confirm it, they insulted anyone who even wants it.http://kotaku.com/xbox-exec-if-you-re-backwards-compatible-you-re-real-509340172
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
#1. what is DRM and why is that so important? (just plain ignorance please forgive me)
It's basically when companies design their products so as to prevent you from managing the file you paid for. Like how Apple doesn't let you manage your iPhone/iPad's files.Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
#2. So what you're saying is, that if I buy a game. I play it under "HRD". Then HRJ wants to play it under his account, he will not be able to unless I buy the game again? Even if I bought 2 xbox 1's I cant take the disc from one console to another and I wouldn't be able to do that either?
Exactly.Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
I sense that microsoft is up to the same shit. I really hope thats not the case and we are looking at things wrong.
If Windows 8 is any indication of how they're handling business from now on, then this is all legit.They done fucked up.
Norik, May 22, 2013
POST#6:
well the others have already touched up on the rest pretty well, so i suppose i'll just touch up on this last point here:
basically because of DRM the game must be connected to the internet to be activated for installation, even though you may or may not be able to play the game online afterwards. Some games require that you be connected to the servers at all times to play even singleplayer(a prime example would be the new sim city, or Diablo3) and basically in the end what will essentially happen is once the games become too old, when the console is at or past the end of its lifespan by a bit, the servers will all be shut down and you will no longer be able to play all the games you paid for - they then pretty much become nothing more than useless pieces of plastic. for games that dont require an internet connection outside of the initial install, the issue becomes, what if 10 or 15 years down the road your console gives out, so you buy a new one but the authentication servers are down? then you cant ever re-install your game ever again, which means you just bought another xbox one(probably used and well past its lifespan) for no reason. now you're stuck with a perfectly good machine thats useless, and perfectly good games that are useless, because of DRM.
so basically with an xbox one, your games are guaranteed for the life of the console(between 5-8 years i would guess) and then after that, when they move on to the next console, should they choose not to have backwards compatibility and support your old games, your old games become useless.
on top of that the new xbox only comes with a 500GB HDD, so you can probably pretty much be guaranteed that you will need online authentication, storage or the like just to cope with the massive amounts of file sizes you will be installing onto it, just because this is how microsoft planned it all out.
POST#7:
well really thats debatable. its almost as if microsoft wants to monopolize how gamers play their games, and i know that will be a big turn off for alot of people, including me. and if its graphics and the like you are after, well the PS4 and the XBOX ONE literally have pretty much identical hardware, so if you grab a PS4, you'd be getting all the good stuff that an XBOX ONE has, and none of the bad stuff(ie none of the monopolization of how we play our games)
POST#8
well i looked up my local hardware store, and not including OS i was able to build a PC with the same specs and a Better GPU, higher clocked octa core CPU, with a 1TB HDD compared to a 500GB HDD, for about $900.87 USD, which also includes the 750W powersupply(you dont need that much juice) i put into it to make sure you have enough power for all your overclocking needs. with a 500GB HDD the same machine is $891.23 USD. and if you want to include operating system(you could just install linux, which is free and costs nothing, but windows for now, is a bit better for gaming. you're doing gaming, so you neednt anything fancy - even win7 home premium should do) you can get something slightly better than the consoles(higher proc clock speed, and same specs as everything else)with overclocking as an option for for $900.86 USD, and it wouldnt be restricted like a console is.
and if you really dont want a 750W powersupply(tbh you really probably dont need that much juice) you could easily save AT LEAST $20-30, and have extra money to put even more power into your machine. also dont forget that computer parts go on sale all the time, so you might even be able to easily pull this build off for $800 USD, or even build something stronger than what i fleshed out for $900 USD.
also keep in mind i live in canada, sometimes things are more expensive here. that means that on top of all this you could be paying even less yet again. and the benifit of a PC is if it ever does for whatever reason become obsolete you can just gut the parts out of it and upgrade them as you need them to be stronger anyways.
of course point being again, people shouldnt have to run to PC just to get a decent gaming experience. i mean why bother with gaming consoles otherwise? thats why im looking to PS4 for their take on next gen.
POST#9:
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
OTHER POST
Reave said: ↑
Two things.
1) If MS keeps its current license system which I believe it is. Then you can buy...idk...Destiny or Assassin's Creed 4 at a retail store and take it over a friends house, recover your gamer tag, install the game using your tag and your friend can play it free of charge from his tag or any other tag on his X1. You can then go home recover your tag and play your game at your house after installing it again. The same would also apply with day 1 digital purchases of games so its nowhere near as bad as PC's one license practice but you would need to be connected to live in order to play at your house.
Its already confirmed that thats not possible. If your friend would want to play the game on his account, be it with the actual game disc or the installed version, he would have to pay a fee or keep using your account.
This article explains some of the stuff in more detail:
ChaosK, Thursday at 7:27 AM
POST#10:
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
POST#11:
The main issue why gamers hate the XBOX ONE is DRM. Take away the DRM, get the gamers back, its simple. If you want stability my friend, I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, suggest looking at PS4. I'm not being a fanboy here - I love my 360 and my PS3, and I've racked up thousands of hours on both. This is about sustainability and freedom to play as we see fit. XBOX ONE, as it is now, does not offer that. I forever want to be able to play my games, 10-20 years down the road, without an internet connection, and without console restriction. That's already why I stopped buying things as digital downloads a long time ago, and now I only buy physical discs as much as I can - because I can still play those many many years down the road. That way is also nice because should anything happen to my console I still have everything. I shouldnt have to have it forced onto me because a company thinks its best. The company doesnt care about how I want to use my product that I purchased, the company just wants to make money.
And just because fighting games and the like dont come out frequently on PC now doesnt mean they wont ever. With how similar the architecture between consoles and PC's are next gen, I really wouldnt be suprised if EVERYTHING is tripple cross platform between XBOX ONE, PS4 and PC, just like I wouldnt be surprised if PC games became widely windows AND linux compatible by looking at how things are currently going with steam(not saying I like steam).
EDIT: MERGING MY OWN POST
I believe that would be their official answer. That doesnt mean AT ALL that they intend to impose fees on people. And if they WERE planning on it now, I bet they arent anymore.
POST#11:
well no it doesnt, and we never said it did. its just that if XBOX ONE(and later if sony actually makes the foolish decision to go out and follow them) it will essentially make buying a console pointless, when if you've gotta pay THAT kind of money, you could just dish out an additional few hundred bucks and build yourself a monster PC. without the ability to borrow and buy used games, there's practically no difference between PC and consoles, and PC's still, even with all of consoles fancy features nowdays, are still capable of more. I believe they call the ability to buy and borrow used games, the "console advantage" btw. to be able to have that advantage encompasses all of the reasons i would buy a PS4, and one of the reasons i wont buy an XBOX ONE, with the other being the long term negative effects of DRM. I've already got a monster gaming PC, i dont need a second, less capable and more restricted one. The worst part is not everybody has the option to go to PC like I do however, and I dont feel that they should be FORCED to compromise and comply, but looking at the price of consoles, if sony follows this route(which i doubt they will at this point, seeing how bad things are going for microsoft), it'll pretty much be just as cheap in the longterm to just build yourself a rig. that way not only do you have all in one entertainment - you have an all in one work machine, and you have a machine where you can customize every single part of it to your preference. Thats something consoles cant do.
POST#12:
POST#13:
i wont be buying one at launch or EVER unless they remove the DRM. please read green text above. sustainability is the very reason i buy retail games to begin with.
POST#14:
EDIT: this isnt directly related to XBOX, but it also helps clarfy the image of why DRM is bad. DRM quite literally, is like renting: http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/amazon-account-ban-reminds-us-drm-content-is-only-rented/
which actually adds another point - should your xbox live account get banned(most likely deservingly, but not always the case) you would also lose access to ALL of the games you rightfully paid for and own, only to have to buy them all again behind a microsoft paywall.
basically DRM lets them tell you how and when you're gonna use your product, and if they dont like you for any reason at all, they can revoke your rights to use that product indefinitely, and in most cases it would force you to buy it again. and of course buying DRM content only supports the system of DRM in itself.
now idk about you, but i want executive control over my purchase. would you like it if you say for example, bought a bed, and then you had some fancy business exec tell you when and how you could sleep on your bed? and say, he didnt like your shoes, and he suspected they could scuff up the bed even though you probably wouldnt ever sleep in bed with shoes on anyways, he could take away your bed entirely, and make you sleep on the floor. doesnt that seem a bit ridiculous? and if you ever wanted a new bed you'd have to buy a brand new bed entirely.
POST#15:
you ninja'd me!
POST#16:
POST#17:
DRM says no, its not more than core. I think that our anger and our disappointment is completely justified simply because of the existence of DRM on this machine. Even if it had been an all in one console regardless, the DRM was truly the icing on the cake. I dont feel they have the gamers as an audience, or they've at least split their audience in half simply because of that one thing. I can even appreciate this guys point of view, and I see where he's coming from, but DRM is just...an absolute NO. You could have done almost anything else, and as angered as I would be about it, I would have eventually probably been able to look past it if it were not for the DRM. Its a deal breaker.
"I think that we as gamers, would do ourselves a great service,"...to fight DRM. "Microsoft and Sony, would be absolutely stupid" to push DRM.
Game consoles are game centric systems about gaming, for gamers - they can certainly do other things now days and its been proven by todays consoles, but gaming is the main purpose and as it rightfully should be. When that stops being so, then they arent gaming consoles anymore, and I may as well just go back to my PC, because that can do everything, and it can do everything better.
But oh well. Industry flops happen. Perhaps we're long past due for another one by now.
POST#18:
POST#19:
POST#20:
i use green text because it strains the eyes less than bright red or yellow lol. although you might be on 8way's light theme, in which case, all of my favorite bright colors will burn your eyes anyways XD
and it still has to be linked to your XBL account either way, which still requires an internet connection at install, and is still DRM. im not reading into want i want to see, im just looking at whats there. and all this does is open the doors for more potential DRM.
wow...that is just...really really greedy. no thanks.
OTHER POST:
Toggle Spoiler
POST#21:
not to that point however, because manditory installs are marked as "YES" which is exactly what i was saying before. and those manditory installs are linked to your XBL account. and your XBL account requires an internet connection. to me, maybe, means potential in this case, as in they could potentially decide to throw more crap onto us, and even if they dont they could still leave the options for developers to do so anyways. but these manditory installs arent even a maybe in this case unless microsoft changes the way their system handles game installs entirely. as it stands now they are still enforcing DRM with that policy.
and then i guess you can read whats on this page. i actually repeated the title "post#6" by accident so there are actually 22 posts not including other posts i put in here. im too lazy to go back and fix that though because it already took me ages to type this out. i hope you appreciate this.
I couldnt have said that part any better. thank you norik.
- Status