POST#1:
Slade said: ↑
Buying any closed-end system supports DRM.
not if the console doesnt support it. if you own the actual physical console, and the actual physical games, even 20 or 30 years down the road when your games dont work, and your console is all broke down, so long as the games dont support DRM, you are legally within your rights to emulate the titles and consoles that you own.
DRM basically limits the lifespan of these games to maybe, 8 years? and then we're expected to move on to whatever the new "thing" is at the time. But i know i for one, still play all my PS1 games, PS2 games, N64 games, Gamecube Games, Xbox games, all my SNES games, and i even still play the few NES games that i own still(i had to buy another NES because mine kicked the bucket, but i do still play these games) and i still own all of the physical machines as well.
i still play MS-DOS games that my dad owns on floppy, even though DOS doesnt exist anymore outside of virtual machine or emulation(though DOS is free now, through use of FREEDOS)
and i remember we even have sat down on multiple occasions playing old commadore 64 titles that we have sitting in a box downstairs.
I did an entire playthrough of Diablo1 which was made for x86 based PC's recently and put it up on youtube - thankfully that game has remained compatible with 64bit operating systems for the time being with only a few minor tweaks required to get it running perfectly. once 32bit compatibility is dropped, even though i own the physical disc, i'll have to emulate it too.
DRM destroys all of this. but buying a closed system limits you to the copy protection of the games so that you have to own the console to play it, which it should otherwise everybody would run crazy, rip all the CD's and download everything, BUT that doesnt mean that it takes away your rights as an owner of said game so that you cannot play it say, 20-30 years down the road. and i for one, dont want to own a bunch if useless plastic donuts(discs) after only about 8 years of enjoyment.
and besides that there is DRM on PC as well. look at EA's Origins, or even steam to a lesser extent. I also believe the PC version of skyrim enforces DRM, whereas the console versions do not.
certainly i suppose you could say that consoles enforce a minor form of DRM with the copy protection blocking out modded content, and yes i can understand that, its a valid point. no system is perfect. but excluding mods, even being able to play those games which we covet so dearly is what the main focus here. and sadly even when we can still play all our old games, we will lose all of our DLC because servers will be down, yatta yatta. but at least we still have the game.
eventually 20 years down the road, my PS3's and XBOX 360's will be rust buckets, but if i keep them around, i can still play my games. thanks to the help of a PC of course, but they are still my games, games i spent my hard earned money on, and i have every right to play them.
basically i guess what im trying to say here, is this isnt about PC does it better(PC does everything better), this is about flat out having the games period. if this sort of DRM type deal actually does take over consoles, how long do you think it will be before it happens to PC? luckily there are ways around it for PC users, because a PC is so very versatile, but once you get into the gray area of buying and then "cracking" games, then piracy becomes the spotlight issue. thats not something i'm going to address here.
Slade said:
↑
Well, there goes the last hope for the 8th gen consoles. PC confirmed master race once again. At least the new Xbox's controller is godlike. Might have to pick one up.
honestly the PS4 controllers dont look bad either. and since PS4 is essentially a PC i imagine the controllers would probably be compatible through generic PC drivers anyways(even if its not somebody will make some like with PS3). rather than support microsofts new system by buying their controllers i'd just buy some PS4 controllers for my PC to use. i've always liked sony's dpad better anyways.
POST#2
The_Landslide said: ↑
While I'm not excited, I can't wait for these overreactions to settle down.
at least from my perspective this isnt an over reaction. not only is it the future direction of gaming, its also my future career.
MONEYMUFFINS said: ↑
OH, SURE.
WHEN IT COMES TO SOULCALIBUR V, EVERYONE COMPLAINS THAT IT LACKS MODES AND FEATURES BECAUSE TOO MUCH FOCUS WAS SOLELY ON GAME PLAY.
THEN MICROSOFT STARTS TRYING TO PLEASE EVERYONE AND NOW YOU’RE ALL INSULTED THAT IT’S NOT HARDCORE ENOUGH.
JUST ADMIT YOU’RE ALL HIGH-MAINTENANCE NAGGING BITCHES AND ARE FAR TOO INCOMPETENT TO EVER SUGGEST OR BEGIN TO KNOW WHAT’S GOOD FOR YOU.
im not sure you know entirely what you're talking about here
first of all SCV was developed in a very short amount of time, and its easy to come to the conclusion that its rushed. certainly we're not all happy about it, i can count myself in that group, but one thing that everybody on this site pretty much can attest to is we're all grateful we even got a new Soul Calibur game period, since namco wasnt going to make one to begin with. certainly we complain and certainly it could be better, but at least it is there.
Microsoft isnt trying to please everybody here. microsoft is trying to make money - their intentions should be pretty obvious, i mean look at who they're teaming up with? EA. one of the greediest companies in the world.
What microsoft wants to do is cator to everybody. but they forgot one group, and thats the most important group. they forgot the gamers. they left us and hung us out to dry. imo we have every right to be unhappy about it. its destroying the world of gaming as we know it(perhaps not destroying but definitely having a majorly negative effect on it.
Let me ask you this: I have been gaming for over 18 years. i have played more games in my life than most people have ever seen. I am a very independant person who thinks for themself, and often goes against the flow, even under heavy criticism. I have played great games and horrible games alike, and I have lived my life by gaming. By choosing my career I have also devoted my life to enhancing and bringing more to the gaming experience. So how am I incompetent? Where is it anybody elses position to decide what is good for me?
Really I take great offense to your statement. Let me tell you some things about the market, us as consumers, and us as members of this conversation. We as the consumer have the RIGHT to demand more for our money. If we dont like something, we take our money to something else that satisfies us. In this case, XBOX does not satisfy us, so we will probably go to PS4. We partake in this conversation because we care, because this is a major part of our life being affected and we feel the need to take the initiative and talk about it. We are compitent and we are trying to preserve what is good with us. Really just because we dont think what a coorporation wants us to think does not mean we are wrong. If you never spoke out about something in your entire life, if you never cared about anything you would be nothing more than a human cattle. What seperates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, is opposable thumbs, combined with the ability to ask questions.
In this particular situation we are using our abilities of perception to try and determine where this will take our future, and how our experience will suffer, and i can tell you that most of us have come to the conclusion that the result is quite negative. Certainly, if you want to go ahead and support microsoft, then go do it. but you dont exactly have a right to come in here and tell us what we can and should think, now do you? Newer =/= better. in the case of the PS4 it probably will be better, but microsoft has essentially alienated the hardcore gamers, even though that is what they built their console based empire off of to begin with.
!
these two here are able to put into words better than i could ever. they are far more charasmatic, and they have a better command of the english language. If you want to know where we're coming from, watch these. But please dont tell us what we should think - for all you know we could feel the exact same way about you, but in order to keep things civil we refrain from saying such.
People are here to voice their concerns. Why dont we let them do that peacefully? If you're satisfied with microsofts work, then please pay no mind to us.
POST#3
Zane said: ↑
New concepts are never liked because people are not smart to adapt fast to them. They are blinded by their self ambition and stop thinking at a higher level.
I dont see wanting a proper gaming experience that I can enjoy long term for a good portion of my life to be ambitious. Newer =/= better. People who are really smart will think critically of what they're getting themselves into. Look Before You Leap.
This is Microsoft's big step towards moving everything to the cloud. Despite their aim being more centered in the "all-in-one" concept, they are still targeting the gaming audience, otherwise Xbox wouldn't play any games whatsoever.
Gamers dont want to go to the cloud. the cloud means once those servers go down and the games are no longer supported in 8 or 9 years, all of our games become nothing more than pieces of useless plastic, which is something we also dont want. On top of that microsoft is also deliberately harming the used game market only for financial gain. The XBOX is directed as a living room entertainment service, but how many hardcore gamers do you know wanna watch cable TV while they play say, soul calibur? If i want to watch TV, i have a cable box for that. If i want to get locked down by CD keys, i have a PC for that. if i want to skype somebody, i have a PC for that. if i want motion sensitivity, nobody does it better than Nintendo. by ridding themselves of the used game market by imposing fees and also thusly preventing local gamers from demoing their friends games before they buy, they are actually hurting the very gamers that you say the console was designed for. Everything done by this generation of xbox, harms the hardcore gaming market. certainly the guy who wants to come home, watch his netflix and play CoD wont suffer, but the guy who wants to replay his RPG that was made for XBOX ONE 10 or 12 years down the line will be SOL.
The presentation of the new features was simply a marketing strategy for them to capture the attention of non-gamers to purchase their product. You can't say Microsft and Sony are both aiming more towards performance because, if you look at their specs, they're both residing in the same level. Their focus is the marketing.
I dont believe we ever mentioned anything about performance(correct me if im wrong) the main issue here was actually DRM. microsoft has it, sony doesnt, thats a selling point on a PS4 for me if the console specs are the same.
This is coming from a PS4 person. I personally dislike and hate the Xbox, and I wish it would just die in a hole and take everyone who ever laid hands on it to the grave... but on a higher level of thinking, Xbox One is really an innovation for family entertainment.
But its about 359 steps back for hardcore gamers(unoriginal pun i know =P). hardcore gamers dont want family entertainment, they are perfectly content sitting in their havens playing the games they've always loved. Microsoft has no right to alienate them, and thats exactly what they're doing.
Please read my green text. I have addressed your points accordingly.
POST#4
Pernicious-Soul said: ↑
Please help me understand why everyone thinks jumping ship to ps4 is the cure all for gaming? Xbox 1 is gonna have the exact same games and graphics minus console exclusive content. They basically have same technology Lol. The only difference will be controller and online gaming preference. Which buy the way is the same difference with current systems.
Today's technology allows for a device too do more than just play games. Look at your phone peeps. You bought it too talk but I'm betting you love the camera, HD recorder, internet, music player, video player, GAMES, texting and all the other shit I'm forgetting that your Phone does Lol.
Judging by comments here you guys are under the illusion that ps4 is a dedicated gaming console that only plays games Lol.
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#5
Pernicious-Soul said: ↑
Please help me understand why everyone thinks jumping ship to ps4 is the cure all for gaming? Xbox 1 is gonna have the exact same games and graphics minus console exclusive content. They basically have same technology Lol. The only difference will be controller and online gaming preference. Which buy the way is the same difference with current systems.
Today's technology allows for a device too do more than just play games. Look at your phone peeps. You bought it too talk but I'm betting you love the camera, HD recorder, internet, music player, video player, GAMES, texting and all the other shit I'm forgetting that your Phone does Lol.
Judging by comments here you guys are under the illusion that ps4 is a dedicated gaming console that only plays games Lol.
BOTH: PC architecture, will likely have alot of the same titles, pretty much equal capabilities. console exclusives are of course, pretty much irrelevant at this point for both sides.
XBOX ONE: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use(i used my PS3 as a blueray player maybe twice, but that wasnt its main purpose so dont kid yourself) and it has DRM out the wazoo. System is marketed as an all in one system with generic focus across the board, and nothing really fulfilling for gamers like me.
PS4: A bunch of features that gamers like me dont care about and will rarely use, but so far lacks DRM, and is remaining a game-centric console, with all other features being an after thought.
sounds to me like sony's doing it right. when was the last time you were watching a movie while checking your facebook while playing a game while chatting it up on skype while sitting in your living room with motion controls? i sure dont need that stuff to play games, just like i can do without an internet connection. i appreciate that those features are there, but they shouldnt take the cake on a gaming centric system, a VIDEO GAME CONSOLE of all places.
Hardcore gamers arent a minority here, and im sorry to disappoint you, but microsoft wouldnt even be making xbox one today if it werent for people like us.
Not only that but the MAIN issue here is the DRM besides. we want a system that can play our games 10-20 years down the road. gamers arent people who just drop their pants for the next best thing to come out. we want a sustainable source of entertainment that we can play privately or share with friends(ie. couch co-op), and a DRM riddled console just isnt capable of providing that.
POST#6
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
anyone else think we are to quick to judge being that its not even out yet? Still wanting to know if this "no backwards" shit is confirmed or just an internet rumor. That would be a HUGE drawback for me and then I could see the hostility. But seriously, might we be jumping to conclusions?
I kinda think the dude was just going into the newer types of features the xbox will have. Yeah it plays games and all, but the public knows that already. If Im gonna showcase my product for the first time, that is a sequel of some sort, I would want to project the new features this thing has over just talking bout the same ol shit that everyone already knows my product does.
no backwards compatible is confirmed. xbox one and xbox360 use two different architecture types.
its not about the new features though, its about the DRM, and the non-game centric focus. tbh playing games isnt supposed to be the same old shit, it is supposed to be an "evolved experience" brought to us by the next generation of consoles, and with the amount of restrictions they are placing on gamers, the gaming market, ect its really just not worth it. and seeing as both consoles are practically identical hardware wise i'd really just rather grab a PS4 and not have to deal with this DRM garbage.
really those features to gamers just take a backseat, and sure while they're there people will use them, but its called a gaming console for a reason - it does gaming. just like your phone is a phone for a reason - it makes calls. they can all do all the same things as eachother to a lesser extent, but each one has a primary purpose.
Also think of it this way HRD. you buy a game, and want to play it. so you get home and play it. thats fine and all. but then HRJ decides he wants to play the game. well you have to pay the full price of the game a second time just so that he can play the game he wants to play unless you want him to play on your live account. Or you could get a PS4 and not have to compromise.
Pernicious-Soul said:
↑
How does SC play on your PC?
SB, SC1, SC2 and SC3 run great on my PC. in another 10 years so will SC4 and SC5. and if they release SC6 with PC compatibility on next gen, it will work immediately. and looking at how similar the architecture is between console and PC they might just do that. you never know.
I dont understand what point you were trying to prove with this statement.
Other post:
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
wait wait wait....I have a few questions.
#1. what is DRM and why is that so important? (just plain ignorance please forgive me)
#2. So what your saying is, that if I buy a game. I play it under "HRD". Then HRJ wants to playit under his account, he will not be able to unless I buy the game again? Even if I bought 2 xbox 1's I cant take the disc from one console to another and I wouldnt be able to do that either?
Ive said before if thats the case....they will end major companies like GameStop and anywhere else that sells used games. That would be a huge shame. On top of that what Im getting from you is that I might be only able to play the game for a certain period of time?
OK if thats for real, then fuck xbox.
I remember when I fist got a 360, the thing only comes with one controller, so I had to buy another one, then batteries. I needed to buy a charger and rechargable batteries. Then I felt like I was just getting taken for a ride, cause I had to pay to play online, etc etc.
I sense that microsoft is up to the same shit. I really hope thats not the case and we are looking at things wrong.
#1 DRM is Digital Rights Management. In other words, it's online passes and activation codes; things that prevent you from reusing or sharing your disc. With Xbox One, they're talking about locking your disc activation to your singular account. If someone else wants to play, they either have to use your account to play it, or buy the game at shelf price to activate it on their own account. So, in this situation, if you wanted to buy a used game to get it cheaper, you'd actually ending up paying more: paying a reduced price for the used disc, and then paying full price for activation.
I believe that answers #2 as well.
Ryuhza, May 22, 2013
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
Still wanting to know if this "no backwards" shit is confirmed or just an internet rumor.
Not only did the confirm it, they insulted anyone who even wants it.
http://kotaku.com/xbox-exec-if-you-re-backwards-compatible-you-re-real-509340172
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
#1. what is DRM and why is that so important? (just plain ignorance please forgive me)
It's basically when companies design their products so as to prevent you from managing the file you paid for. Like how Apple doesn't let you manage your iPhone/iPad's files.
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
#2. So what you're saying is, that if I buy a game. I play it under "HRD". Then HRJ wants to play it under his account, he will not be able to unless I buy the game again? Even if I bought 2 xbox 1's I cant take the disc from one console to another and I wouldn't be able to do that either?
Exactly.
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
I sense that microsoft is up to the same shit. I really hope thats not the case and we are looking at things wrong.
If Windows 8 is any indication of how they're handling business from now on, then this is all legit.
They done fucked up.
Norik, May 22, 2013
POST#6:
Hot Rod Dave said: ↑
On top of that what Im getting from you is that I might be only able to play the game for a certain period of time?
well the others have already touched up on the rest pretty well, so i suppose i'll just touch up on this last point here:
basically because of DRM the game must be connected to the internet to be activated for installation, even though you may or may not be able to play the game online afterwards. Some games require that you be connected to the servers at all times to play even singleplayer(a prime example would be the new sim city, or Diablo3) and basically in the end what will essentially happen is once the games become too old, when the console is at or past the end of its lifespan by a bit, the servers will all be shut down and you will no longer be able to play all the games you paid for - they then pretty much become nothing more than useless pieces of plastic. for games that dont require an internet connection outside of the initial install, the issue becomes, what if 10 or 15 years down the road your console gives out, so you buy a new one but the authentication servers are down? then you cant ever re-install your game ever again, which means you just bought another xbox one(probably used and well past its lifespan) for no reason. now you're stuck with a perfectly good machine thats useless, and perfectly good games that are useless, because of DRM.
so basically with an xbox one, your games are guaranteed for the life of the console(between 5-8 years i would guess) and then after that, when they move on to the next console, should they choose not to have backwards compatibility and support your old games, your old games become useless.
on top of that the new xbox only comes with a 500GB HDD, so you can probably pretty much be guaranteed that you will need online authentication, storage or the like just to cope with the massive amounts of file sizes you will be installing onto it, just because this is how microsoft planned it all out.
POST#7:
Isaiah said: ↑
Well i personally am excited for this console. I know they will charge up he ass with the beginning prices but its features are very impressive the graphics are so so beautiful, BUT why now? Why would they make a new console when the 360 is making money already and it's at a high peak. The controller looks kinda wierd but whatever. It's a good console but bad timing and its funny how we are talking down on the console and Microsoft is about to make some HUGE DOLLARS!!!
well really thats debatable. its almost as if microsoft wants to monopolize how gamers play their games, and i know that will be a big turn off for alot of people, including me. and if its graphics and the like you are after, well the PS4 and the XBOX ONE literally have pretty much identical hardware, so if you grab a PS4, you'd be getting all the good stuff that an XBOX ONE has, and none of the bad stuff(ie none of the monopolization of how we play our games)
POST#8
Solo said: ↑
Not to mention most of the other features they mentioned(like the multitasking) you can do on a subpar PC. If I felt like doing so I could watch an NFL stream, talk to someone on Skype, listen to music, and various other things on my 5 year old laptop all at the same time with no issues.
Hell, save up a few hundred more dollars and you can have yourself a really nice PC.
EDIT: Since these new consoles are coming out I bet the prices for parts will drop a bit since new parts will be coming out. You'll be able to build a PC that's better(or at least equal to) this for the same price or less.
well i looked up my local hardware store, and not including OS i was able to build a PC with the same specs and a Better GPU, higher clocked octa core CPU, with a 1TB HDD compared to a 500GB HDD, for about $900.87 USD, which also includes the 750W powersupply(you dont need that much juice) i put into it to make sure you have enough power for all your overclocking needs. with a 500GB HDD the same machine is $891.23 USD. and if you want to include operating system(you could just install linux, which is free and costs nothing, but windows for now, is a bit better for gaming. you're doing gaming, so you neednt anything fancy - even win7 home premium should do) you can get something slightly better than the consoles(higher proc clock speed, and same specs as everything else)with overclocking as an option for for $900.86 USD, and it wouldnt be restricted like a console is.
and if you really dont want a 750W powersupply(tbh you really probably dont need that much juice) you could easily save AT LEAST $20-30, and have extra money to put even more power into your machine. also dont forget that computer parts go on sale all the time, so you might even be able to easily pull this build off for $800 USD, or even build something stronger than what i fleshed out for $900 USD.
also keep in mind i live in canada, sometimes things are more expensive here. that means that on top of all this you could be paying even less yet again. and the benifit of a PC is if it ever does for whatever reason become obsolete you can just gut the parts out of it and upgrade them as you need them to be stronger anyways.
of course point being again, people shouldnt have to run to PC just to get a decent gaming experience. i mean why bother with gaming consoles otherwise? thats why im looking to PS4 for their take on next gen.
POST#9:
Reave said: ↑
Two things.
1) If MS keeps its current license system which I believe it is. Then you can buy...idk...Destiny or Assassin's Creed 4 at a retail store and take it over a friends house, recover your gamer tag, install the game using your tag and your friend can play it free of charge from his tag or any other tag on his X1. You can then go home recover your tag and play your game at your house after installing it again. The same would also apply with day 1 digital purchases of games so its nowhere near as bad as PC's one license practice but you would need to be connected to live in order to play at your house.
2) For all the people claiming jumping ship they need to step back and pay attention. EA stopped the online passes for a reason. EA games are not Xbox exclusives. Also this should have set off a few bells a long time ago. It did for me.
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
Reave said: ↑
With the aforementioned workaround your friend would never have to login to your account again but still play the game on their ownprofile. IMO borrowing would be a waste of time when you could just give the game to them for free.
I do this with all my arcade games, most of my dlc and games on demand titles between two consoles.
In case you missed the link its possible PS4 will also adopt this system too. I think a lot of people are jumping the gun on this hate train tbh.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
OTHER POST
Reave said: ↑
Two things.
1) If MS keeps its current license system which I believe it is. Then you can buy...idk...Destiny or Assassin's Creed 4 at a retail store and take it over a friends house, recover your gamer tag, install the game using your tag and your friend can play it free of charge from his tag or any other tag on his X1. You can then go home recover your tag and play your game at your house after installing it again. The same would also apply with day 1 digital purchases of games so its nowhere near as bad as PC's one license practice but you would need to be connected to live in order to play at your house.
Its already confirmed that thats not possible. If your friend would want to play the game on his account, be it with the actual game disc or the installed version, he would have to pay a fee or keep using your account.
This article explains some of the stuff in more detail:
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/19...ndhand_and_always_online_fully_explained.html
ChaosK, Thursday at 7:27 AM
POST#10:
Reave said: ↑
Two things.
1) If MS keeps its current license system which I believe it is. Then you can buy...idk...Destiny or Assassin's Creed 4 at a retail store and take it over a friends house, recover your gamer tag, install the game using your tag and your friend can play it free of charge from his tag or any other tag on his X1. You can then go home recover your tag and play your game at your house after installing it again. The same would also apply with day 1 digital purchases of games so its nowhere near as bad as PC's one license practice but you would need to be connected to live in order to play at your house.
2) For all the people claiming jumping ship they need to step back and pay attention. EA stopped the online passes for a reason. EA games are not Xbox exclusives. Also this should have set off a few bells a long time ago. It did for me.
well EA stopped online passes because XBOX is doing it for them. if sony doesnt follow suit, which im expecting them not to, EA will either put online passes on sony games, or not make games for sony im sure.
also we're not thinking about the short term - certainly you could take your games to your friends house and still be able to play the games on your account. the problems are a) your buddy cannot borrow your games, b) 10-12 years down the road when those authentication servers go down, your games are nothing but useless plastic.
Reave said: ↑
With the aforementioned workaround your friend would never have to login to your account again but still play the game on their ownprofile. IMO borrowing would be a waste of time when you could just give the game to them for free.
I do this with all my arcade games, most of my dlc and games on demand titles between two consoles.
In case you missed the link its possible PS4 will also adopt this system too. I think a lot of people are jumping the gun on this hate train tbh.
im not certain, but im pretty sure the XBOX ONE also requires you to sync your games after a certain amount of time as well - correct me on that if im wrong. some games will also require always online DRM besides, thanks to the capabilities of the cloud.
To address your link as well, sony has already stated in another article that they do not view DRM to be a viable option for the console. if they change their minds and follow the way of microsoft, well i wont be buying their console either because its not worth it. there would no longer be a point to gaming consoles, especially when i have a perfectly good PC i can use anyways. in fact these things are priced right up there around the same as a PC equivalent anyways, so might as well build yourself a PC. at least then you wouldnt be under the restrictions of what the console can do. you would have a machine you could literally do everything on, and unlike consoles, you could always upgrade it later, meaning you could make it more and more powerful as you need to.
POST#11:
Reave said: ↑
snip
The main issue why gamers hate the XBOX ONE is DRM. Take away the DRM, get the gamers back, its simple. If you want stability my friend, I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, suggest looking at PS4. I'm not being a fanboy here - I love my 360 and my PS3, and I've racked up thousands of hours on both. This is about sustainability and freedom to play as we see fit. XBOX ONE, as it is now, does not offer that. I forever want to be able to play my games, 10-20 years down the road, without an internet connection, and without console restriction. That's already why I stopped buying things as digital downloads a long time ago, and now I only buy physical discs as much as I can - because I can still play those many many years down the road. That way is also nice because should anything happen to my console I still have everything. I shouldnt have to have it forced onto me because a company thinks its best. The company doesnt care about how I want to use my product that I purchased, the company just wants to make money.
And just because fighting games and the like dont come out frequently on PC now doesnt mean they wont ever. With how similar the architecture between consoles and PC's are next gen, I really wouldnt be suprised if EVERYTHING is tripple cross platform between XBOX ONE, PS4 and PC, just like I wouldnt be surprised if PC games became widely windows AND linux compatible by looking at how things are currently going with steam(not saying I like steam).
EDIT: MERGING MY OWN POST
Reave said: ↑
Your missing the point I think. Xbox One will play used games too, behind a fee of course. Sony said PS4 will play used games too but when asked "If someone buys a PS4 game your not gonna stop them from reselling it?". The response was. "So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?". That's some vague stuff coming from the same guy (Shuhei Yoshida) your linked article was talking about.
I believe that would be their official answer. That doesnt mean AT ALL that they intend to impose fees on people. And if they WERE planning on it now, I bet they arent anymore.
POST#11:
Reave said: ↑
They stopped supporting Nintendo. The new feature (from my understanding) basically means they get the profits from every single sale they make. Completely cutting out the used and rental markets.
Buying a gaming PC doesn't stop the "no used game" problem. Just saying...
well no it doesnt, and we never said it did. its just that if XBOX ONE(and later if sony actually makes the foolish decision to go out and follow them) it will essentially make buying a console pointless, when if you've gotta pay THAT kind of money, you could just dish out an additional few hundred bucks and build yourself a monster PC. without the ability to borrow and buy used games, there's practically no difference between PC and consoles, and PC's still, even with all of consoles fancy features nowdays, are still capable of more. I believe they call the ability to buy and borrow used games, the "console advantage" btw. to be able to have that advantage encompasses all of the reasons i would buy a PS4, and one of the reasons i wont buy an XBOX ONE, with the other being the long term negative effects of DRM. I've already got a monster gaming PC, i dont need a second, less capable and more restricted one. The worst part is not everybody has the option to go to PC like I do however, and I dont feel that they should be FORCED to compromise and comply, but looking at the price of consoles, if sony follows this route(which i doubt they will at this point, seeing how bad things are going for microsoft), it'll pretty much be just as cheap in the longterm to just build yourself a rig. that way not only do you have all in one entertainment - you have an all in one work machine, and you have a machine where you can customize every single part of it to your preference. Thats something consoles cant do.
POST#12:
Reave said: ↑
But you can still bring games over your friends house and play for free. You can also get 2 copies of the same game for the price of 1 which means borrowing is kinda moot (unless you have more than 1 gaming friend) when you could just give it to your friend for free. That's something PC doesn't do. Trust me when I say I'm a cheapass and have thought this through thoroughly with the current information provided. Even if PS4 follows suit, I think you can do this on there too but I'm not familiar with the DRM system that PS3 has.
that second copy would be for backup purposes. im certain these machines will crap out just as often as the others. and what if i dont want my friend to be at my house for the ENTIRE TIME it takes him to beat that singleplayer RPG that i wanted him to borrow? you're insane if you think i would lend him my machine. also the PS3 doesnt have a DRM system(except for maybe downloaded titles, but as i said i stopped buying those a long time ago.)
It was just a possible scenario. Your reading into it too much. I mean EA has games on Wii U but don't intend to make anymore for them.
I will also note that EA wasn't gonna support MS on 360 unless MS let them use their own servers for their games.
thats because EA is an evil and greedy company that needs a REALLY SERIOUS reality check.
POST#13:
Reave said: ↑
The force installs alone will make the systems life longer. If they do however have problems you don't have to buy one at launch. I intend to wait half a year to year before I buy either console to see what problems they have.
they also ENSURE the games die when the console stops being supported. so that long lifespan may not be so long.
I'm not sure what you mean about second copies needed for back-up and your friend needing to stay at your house to finish an entire RPG.
If the system craps out on you just redownload it when you get another one. Maybe you don't understand that each copy would be digital regardless if you downloaded it or purchased from the store.
until the games stop being supported by the DRM, or microsoft comes out with a new system that doesnt support backwards compatibility ie. the system itself no longer being supported. i want to play my games 20 years from now. i already still do. DRM doesnt allow that. digital download doesnt allow that.
I have a friend in New York and I stay in Philadelphia. I gave him Tales of Vesperia and I did not go over his house nor did he come over my house to get it. I did not send him a USB with the game in the mail either. He simply recovered my Gamertag on his console and brought the game off the marketplace with my account. He can play Tales of Vesperia till his heart is content on his OWN Gamertagusing his OWN console after the initial purchase. I can also play Tales of Vesperia on MY Gamertag using MY OWN Console. Even at theSAME time if we wanted too. I also gave him Metal Gear Peacewalker and we can play the MP together on it.
im sorry, im not giving out my account information to anybody. if you do thats your prerogative.
PS3 and Xbox 360 have had DRM since they released. DRM is just being extended to retail games.
maybe digital download wise, again exactly why i stopped buying digital downloads and went 100% retail. i dont want DRM in ANY of my games. I for the most part, have enjoyed a DRM free console experience, and I would like to keep it that way. I know for a fact there are many others who feel the same way.
i wont be buying one at launch or EVER unless they remove the DRM. please read green text above. sustainability is the very reason i buy retail games to begin with.
POST#14:
Reave said: ↑
Yet in the PS4 thread you said PS5, PS6, etc moving forward is gonna be better on backwards compatibility because its built on a PC architecture. I don't see any different with Xbox One going forward since its built on a PC architecture.
yes which means PS4 wont have to emulate itself anymore. XBOX however, can use the cloud and other such servers to further impose DRM. do you really think those games will still work once the servers go down? maybe if the game was made by a good developer they will update it, but chances are no. they will not.
Me having a friend in New York is irrelevant to the point I was making. You can physically go over your friends house and do the exact same thing. If you have a brother, sister, roommate, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband or cousin in the next room with an Xbox One you can do the same thing. That keeps your account information secure and giving a second copy to them for free.
and what if i want to lend the game to another person after that? besides this is giving the person the game, not lending it to them, big difference. if i have the ability to lend a game, i can lend it to as many people as i please. XBOX ONE does not give me that ability. im not interested in buying the game for the other person, i just want to lend it to them on a temporary basis. once they finish with it, if they like it enough, they can buy it themselves.
You do realize PS3 had a lot of the non-gaming apps before Xbox right? I don't see what console features that have nothing to do with gaming mean a focus on TV. Its just extra fluff. Its not like all the consoles features are aimed at television either.
PS3 still kept gaming as the mainstay focus however, and none of these non-gaming apps/hardware were required to function(ie. kinnect) if i want TV i have a perfectly good shaw cable box i can watch.
1000 cap on friends list this is nice, i will admit that.
500GB hard drive with support for external hard drives NOT made by MS. why have the internal hard drive retricted though? why not just let me throw a 2TB drive in there.
USB 3.0 this isnt really a big deal at all. USB 3.0 has been around for years now.
Dedicated Servers for every game along with the DRM to go with it. once servers shut down, game becomes useless.
^Those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.
EDIT: this isnt directly related to XBOX, but it also helps clarfy the image of why DRM is bad. DRM quite literally, is like renting:http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/amazon-account-ban-reminds-us-drm-content-is-only-rented/
which actually adds another point - should your xbox live account get banned(most likely deservingly, but not always the case) you would also lose access to ALL of the games you rightfully paid for and own, only to have to buy them all again behind a microsoft paywall.
basically DRM lets them tell you how and when you're gonna use your product, and if they dont like you for any reason at all, they can revoke your rights to use that product indefinitely, and in most cases it would force you to buy it again. and of course buying DRM content only supports the system of DRM in itself.
now idk about you, but i want executive control over my purchase. would you like it if you say for example, bought a bed, and then you had some fancy business exec tell you when and how you could sleep on your bed? and say, he didnt like your shoes, and he suspected they could scuff up the bed even though you probably wouldnt ever sleep in bed with shoes on anyways, he could take away your bed entirely, and make you sleep on the floor. doesnt that seem a bit ridiculous? and if you ever wanted a new bed you'd have to buy a brand new bed entirely.
POST#15:
Reave said: ↑
...
Sony partnered with Gaikai which is a company that built itself around cloud based gaming for their PS4 and backwards compatibility with earlier generation games. Cloud based gaming is there with them as well to so don't put too much faith in that with the little bit of information we have.
that doesnt mean its manditory though. for all we know they could be using it for cloud storage, or for their digital download system, or the like. and if thats the case, it doesnt effect playing retail versions unless i wanna store my saves in the cloud. looking at microsofts stocks, if sony follows suit, not only is it financial suicide, but theres also again, no longer a reason not to just build a rig. ive already got mine built, so im prepared to jump ship there too if sony goes down that road.
I understand the point of lending just fine. I live with two other gamers. I also see the benefit in the new system as well. Having a benefit means its not all bad like you claim it to be, regardless of how many friends you game with. If you have just one other person on board it cuts down the amount of money both of you spend on gaming while allowing you to game just as much or maybe even more than usual. If another friend might want to buy or try out the game there is nothing stopping you from inviting them over or going over their and letting them try it out. You won't have to lug around a gigantic rig either.
my rig has wheels. and if im taking a console anywhere, chances are i'll just take a vehicle. ill put what i need in the bed of the truck, or in the back seat. and its not just about lending games to try things out. i've lent games to friends so that they could beat the whole thing before giving it back to me. and its my property, i've every right to do so. if you're taking your console somewhere, chances are a) you've got a compact little monitor to tote around and b) you're probably getting there by some sort of vehicle ride anyways.
I guess the kept gaming as a mainstay or rather their casual appealing ideas don't catch on as well (Did you forget about the terrible WonderBook demo?) and PS Move isn't as innovative as Kinect. The PS Eye is supposed to come bundled with PS4s I think and we don't have enough Info to say it isn't as integrated as Kinect. Sony's console didn't show what their console could do. Just what they hoped it could do followed by a few exclusives and first look at multiplatform games.
true. we will have to wait and see. even if it was like kinnect though, i would still be willing to overlook it for lack of DRM.
500GB isn't bad but maybe to keep the cost down as much as possible. I expect the system to be $400 dollars. The fact that you can now use any 2TB hard drive you want (Just like PS3) instead of MS overpriced BS HDD is very much a positive for gamers everywhere.
its bad when each and every game has to be installed to the HDD - that space will get eaten up like no tomorrow. for something that only saves save files on that 500GB HDD however, its more than enough room to last a lifetime. i doubt that the system will be as little as $400 looking at the hardware inside of it, and another thing: do you know the price difference between a 1TB HDD and a 500GB HDD even on a consumer market? up here its about $10.
also correct me if im wrong but i believe the HDD in the XBOX ONE is not interchangeable.
USB 3.0 wasn't around in 360s is the point.
it doesnt really make a difference when it comes to consoles however. it just lets you use USB 3.0 compatible stuff, and i believe 3.0 also has faster transfer capabilities. but thats about it. its not like its a technological landmark or anything for it to be included.
The only company I know that shuts down servers is EA. I can still play Dark Sector or Dead or Alive 4 online today. I don't see this changing next gen but we'll see.
and what about Playstation 2's servers? or original xbox's servers?
i guarantee the DRM servers wont be along that far down the road either. its financially unviable.
MS doesn't ban people for no reason. That said if you get banned they can lift it, if it was unjustly but I don't recall their ever being an unjustified ban. That alone doesn't deter me at all because I abide by the Terms of Use. Sharing the two licenses for digital content between two consoles does not go against the Term of Use either. If you get banned and have to buy stuff over then that's your own responsibility. Agreeing to the Terms of Use means anything that goes on with that Gamertag is your responsibility to take otherwise don't hit accept.
it doesnt change the fact that you are losing content you justly purchased and justly owned. regardless of the wrongs you've done, you are still entitled to use your product because you bought the rights to use it, and with good money, even if offline without xbox live service(as it has been justly taken away in this case)
MKHSpartan said:
↑
Actually Microsoft shut down their original xbox servers about 2 years back which sucked, I still played Halo 2 online right up until they shut them off. So it isn't just EA (but EA is worse I will admit).
you ninja'd me!
POST#16:
Reave said: ↑
the point is because it is a bad thing, and a good portion of us agree in that we dont want things to be this way. since we are the consumer, by expressing our concerns we can try to sway the market in a different direction than its going, and companies which fail to adapt lose market share, profit, and lose out on their investments. thats why we bash something that isnt out yet. because we want it to change or go away. companies will either listen to what the consumer wants, or ignore them at their own peril, due to their greed to want to turn a profit.
The internal hard drive isn't interchangeable. You can add on an external Hard drive of any amount though. You can play instantly when you start installs so it isn't like every game has to stay on your hard drive. I just recently went from 13GB hard drive for 5 years to 237GB hard drive so deleting stuff ain't a beef of mine. Consoles are always sold at a loss (unless your Nintendo) so I doubt it will be upwards of $600 dollars. I think they said there will only be one SKU so my guess is $400-$500. Anything more would be doing what Sony did with PS3.
but why should i have to? external HDD's are also more expensive. and what if i dont want to delete stuff? i've been in your shoes with a small hard drive and having to delete stuff, and i dont want to be there again. since its PC architecture they should at least give me the option to upgrade MY storage space on MY console. besides that its a feature currently present in the machines we have now - why would i upgrade, yet settle for less?
and again, looking at the hardware, those machines would be sold at a serious loss, of at least $150-$200 if they are sold at $600. i realize they probably get discounts because they are a corporation, but unless the price of hardware has a serious drop, i cant see consoles being that cheap and the company still staying afloat.(well no they are a corporation, so theyd stay afloat, but that is some serious financial losses.)
Fair enough on servers from a decade ago but EA does it within a year or two.
and i still actually play my games from a decade ago, and i know alot of people who do. EA is just a really evil, greedy corporation which makes even other really evil, greedy corporations look like saints. pay no mind to them.
When you take part in a bannable offense (nudity, phishing, modding, etc) you forfeit your right to said content. Don't want it lost, don't break the rules. Its that simple.
no, you forfeit your right to said network, ie. XBOX LIVE, but your physical discs, are always yours and always will be no matter what. you are ENTITLED to them. to rob you of your content and force you behind a pay wall regardless of what you did to get banned is morally wrong and disloyal to the consumer. as i said before, its RENT, not owning. and then there's also the rare unjust banning of an account, and of course, the fact that DRM kills my ability to use content decades from now, and the fact that DRM kills used games, AND kills the ability to lend games out. we BOUGHT the right to use that content, unless its digital download they have NO RIGHT to force us to use it a certain way. so long as we are within the law we are free to do as we please with it. it requires their console to play it, but thats all. DRM is a BAD thing. I dont understand why anybody would want it. EVEN from a corporations point of view, it costs much more money to even create and maintain DRM content in the first place, than it does to just create the content itself - not to mention it is consumer unfriendly, as i've pretty much stated time and time again.
POST#17:
Norik said: ↑
snip
DRM says no, its not more than core. I think that our anger and our disappointment is completely justified simply because of the existence of DRM on this machine. Even if it had been an all in one console regardless, the DRM was truly the icing on the cake. I dont feel they have the gamers as an audience, or they've at least split their audience in half simply because of that one thing. I can even appreciate this guys point of view, and I see where he's coming from, but DRM is just...an absolute NO. You could have done almost anything else, and as angered as I would be about it, I would have eventually probably been able to look past it if it were not for the DRM. Its a deal breaker.
"I think that we as gamers, would do ourselves a great service,"...to fight DRM. "Microsoft and Sony, would be absolutely stupid" to push DRM.
Game consoles are game centric systems about gaming, for gamers - they can certainly do other things now days and its been proven by todays consoles, but gaming is the main purpose and as it rightfully should be. When that stops being so, then they arent gaming consoles anymore, and I may as well just go back to my PC, because that can do everything, and it can do everything better.
But oh well. Industry flops happen. Perhaps we're long past due for another one by now.
POST#18:
Reave said: ↑
I know how to be a consumer. I never said don't be upset over this stuff. I'm just not foolish enough to start praising the competitor when they are being vague about the very point of conflict.
You must be playing on PC way too much if you think MS is gonna allow us to modify any hardware at all. This is just complaining for complainings sake IMO. If adhering to their policies is such a big deal then don't buy it. swapping a harddrive isnt modifying hardware - and its a feature currently available on current consoles.
DRM is a policy that pretty much destroys freedom to use the products the way we want to use them. of course i wont buy it. and i'd advise against anybody else buying it either, because i feel it's my duty as somebody who is going to be making a career out of this field as well.
and FYI currently i dont play on PC as often as i do my consoles, because im happy with the way consoles handle things now for the most part. its not that im resistant to change - as i said in my above post, its just that DRM is too terrible to overlook.
You totally didn't read the article I linked it seems. "We're designing Xbox One to be your all-in-one entertainment system that is connected to the cloud and always ready," the post reads. "We are also designing it so you can play games and watch Blu-ray movies and live TV if you lose your connection."
yes i did actually read that - dont make assumptions please. do you know all that means? it just means that if you lose connection, you can go without an internet connection for 'x' number of hours before you must resync. and games which are truly 100% offline titles will still require DRM checks on install besides - because they must be linked to your live account, still killing any sort of long term use you had in mind for the title. as for the blueray thats not hard because a blueray player doesnt even utilize DRM afaik, and the TV comes from cable output, which isnt related to being connected either.
If you get console banned on PS3 or Xbox 360 and you buy another console to get back on the service, good luck using Dampierre without putting out $5 since your entitled to him. Everything else is irrelevant till we get more info from these companies.
1) dampierre is a pretty lame example here. 2) thats another reason why i hate DLC being digital only - if they were all retail, i'd buy em all retail just like that. 3) at least when retail i still get to keep the actual game and the actual core gameplay. i may miss out on kool DLC extras and the like, but so long as the core game is there, i am willing to settle for that. core game without fancy add ons is better than no game at all.
POST#19:
Reave said: ↑
I used to install games on my external hard drive and had all my Guitar Hero/Rockband dlc on it before I upgraded to the bigger hard drive. They played straight from there without having to move it back and forth between the official one and the external one. I also had moves stored on there too.
@Slayer No. The article clearly states that it is "potential scenarios." It doesn't say we have occasional check-ins for DRM purposes. I got "wait till the concrete details are out as it seems policies are either being changed (due to negative feedback) or never solidified" from reading the article. Anything else on the issue is a waste of our time. There will be plenty of time to burn MS and or Sony to the ground between E3 and launch.
i didnt get that from the article at all - what i got, is simply ADDITIONAL DRM that could potentially be imposed on top of the DRM that microsoft is already imposing in the first place. microsoft has already confirmed that the games are tied to your xbox account - thats a pretty concrete detail. even if there arent occasional check ins(best case this will be left up to developers, not manditory) you STILL need an internet connection at time of install, which pretty much means the DRM will and always will be there whether you like it or not. unless they pull a 180 and reverse engineer how their console handles games, the system will never be DRM free either.
unless microsoft removes their DRM, i think now is as good a time as any to grab our torches. maybe it'll make them think about turning things around. we'll let our money do the talking. people have already done some talking through microsofts stocks - look at how they have dropped.
i dont think this is a waste of time at all. it's taking an honest critical look at what microsoft is doing, and calling them out on it, regardless of how they try to hide it. it additionally helps inform people so that they can make an educated decision. DRM is a very serious issue for gamers and developers alike, and sometime in the future, i hope you can see it for what it is, regardless of which side you choose to take in the end.
I used Dampierre as an example because you said you don't buy games off the marketplace otherwise I would've replaced him with Soulcalibur V and said good luck playing it altogether after a console ban. Either way I've been a member of XBL since 2007 and never been banned because I don't do anything wrong. The one simple thing you keep trying to overlook.
im not overlooking anything at all. regardless of whether you've been banned or not - i've been a member of xbox live for quite some time as well(at least 4 years by now) and i've never been banned for doing anything either. but you're still entitled to play the games you own - you just lose the privilage of accessing xbox live. take that right away however, and theres no point on buying the next console. DRM takes that right away, making your $60 purchase nothing more than an overrated rental. its not about justifications for getting banned its about using the product we rightfully purchased the way we want to use it, irregardless of the circumstances, because we have physical possession of said product, and we supported said console and company. we dont have the right to the service that we violated the terms of, but we have the right to continue to use the product that we purchased. DRM gives companies essentially the permission to violate your rights of ownership.
POST#20:
K0rN_b4LL said: ↑
Anyone else getting tired of green text? I'm just saying. Maybe mix it up a bit and use red or yellow for a while?
i use green text because it strains the eyes less than bright red or yellow lol. although you might be on 8way's light theme, in which case, all of my favorite bright colors will burn your eyes anyways XD
Reave said: ↑
No. it just seems like you are reading what you want to see. For example. Watch Dogs is confirmed (by the developers) to fully work without an Internet connection ever. Like I said we don't know enough concrete details yet. Just different websites contradicting each other and gamers raging about it.
Yes and its really hurting my eyes.
White background for you to?
and it still has to be linked to your XBL account either way, which still requires an internet connection at install, and is still DRM. im not reading into want i want to see, im just looking at whats there. and all this does is open the doors for more potential DRM.
d3v said: ↑
Lol, with Kinect, you can't even watch videos without the MPAA counting how many people are watching the video and charging you for public performance.
wow...that is just...really really greedy. no thanks.
OTHER POST:
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POST#21:
Reave said: ↑
This photo says it all. When something is a maybe it is nothing more than that.
not to that point however, because manditory installs are marked as "YES" which is exactly what i was saying before. and those manditory installs are linked to your XBL account. and your XBL account requires an internet connection. to me, maybe, means potential in this case, as in they could potentially decide to throw more crap onto us, and even if they dont they could still leave the options for developers to do so anyways. but these manditory installs arent even a maybe in this case unless microsoft changes the way their system handles game installs entirely. as it stands now they are still enforcing DRM with that policy.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+DRM+is+bad
