Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

[Alstein]

About what Alastor said and generally about "difficult moves" (eg: JFs based on speed or on timing or even other complicated moves like SS/CS) I can see a point here.

However, there are so many different cases of various JFs in SCIV that it gets somehow confusing on how they should treat them in SCV.

On the one hand simplifying JFs would make them easier to use for everyone. However noone can deny that "mastering" some very hard moves gives a completely different taste of satisfaction and visual pleasure for both the player and anyone that watches it.

For example (since it was mentioned), what do you think would happen IF Ivy's command throws got a more simplified input?
Easier to come out of course...
However, it wouldn't surprise me If they nerfed the damage and/or range of these throws since they would be more spammable (aka easier input). Is that a good thing? I think that these command throws should remain as they are. Or just make a JF version much MUCH stronger but very hard to do. But then we return to the start of the problem, because people will always want to "master" the hardest move whichever one it is.

Another example would be Setsuka (that I consider to be probably the hardest character to master in SCIV). She is very strong even without some of her JFs, however, If someone is able to perform her JFs whenever needed, in a very succefull rate, she becomes a monster. And to me, that makes a huge difference between various players.

Of course some of you have a point also. Because there is always a turn-off factor whenever a player feels that cannot get the most out of his character.

And then in SCIV, there are also some "unecessary/weird" cases of JFs that I don't even know why they made it like that...
Some of them being:
- Yun's 8KK:K (or something like that). More damage and taunting...

However, I must say once again that JF difficulty is a bit complicated matter. And there are many different opinions on what should be easier/harder/riskier/rewarding/not rewarding/etc by many different players.

Sorry to quote en entire long post, but lots of relevant points.

a) On SS/CS for Ivy. What I would do.
Half-Circle command. I would borrow from VF5 and give a benefit for "fastest input" like what Wolf had for his Giant Swing. With the fastest input, the nerfs to the move would be removed.

Yunsung- JF's 8KKK. Adding "coolness" to a move, and some damage, is a good use of JF in my eyes. It's something casuals can aim for, without adding a vast amount of difficulty to the character

To me at least, good JF design is something that a skilled player will work in if they pick a character, but only after they get the basics- and should only become necessary at high-end tourney level. It needs to be something a scrub can get lucky on once in a blue moon also, so they know it's there, and think "oh , that's neat, how do I get this more often?" This is the way I feel about execution in general- I despise games where I feel like I can only play one character because the execution is so damn hard initially, and I'd have to put in 10-20 hours before I can play the game. Why should I do that when I can play something else?

The one thing you'd definitely see if you simplified Ivy's command grabs, is a lot more Ivy's at launch, a few of which would seriously master the character over time, and we'd benefit by seeing a wider variety of characters when we play. This is why I think eased movelist execution is awesome- it really does bring the variety, which makes playing more fun. You make a character hard to play, you won't see that character much.

As for Rock/Mina- I can see why OOF thinks they can win. 90% of the tournaments he enters, he's the best person there by enough that he COULD win with any character. When a low tier char wins a tourney, usually it's means one of two things

a) The player would have won no matter what
b) The game is pretty well-balanced, see VF5 with Chibita winning SBO with Lion.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

IIRC there was an interview asking the project soul team what their favourite characters were. One of them said Ivy, and one of them said Astaroth. Notice why those 2 are never less than upper mid tier ? Guess no one likes rock lol

Yeah, i remember that. But i thought Rock was quite good in SCIII. But yeah, in SCIV, he is really a big letdown....

 

[Ooofmatic]

As for Rock/Mina- I can see why OOF thinks they can win. 90% of the tournaments he enters, he's the best person there by enough that he COULD win with any character.

No, that's not my reason for believing that it is possible for Rock/Mina to win. I've learned Rock, I understand his mechanics and the mind game potential that he has. He isn't hopeless, he just requires a highly skilled and dedicated player to win, just like Kura with Talim. And I've fought many great Mina players. I actually have to think to beat them. These characters are underrated due to so many people who don't use them, that just go with the popular opinion that they are garbage (I myself once thought Rock was garbage until I learned him), and then there are the players that use them but can't win with them so they blame the character.

Right now I find Dampierre in SCBD to be the most fun character for me out of the entire cast (even more fun than Vader), and I'm planning to use him in SC5, regardless of what tier he will be. And I'll be damned if he is "sc4 rock tier" and people tell me that I wont win with him. I'm not gonna blame the character, and I'm gonna prove people wrong. Just like how I mained Talim in SC3 regardless of her being one of the worst in the game. To me blaming the character for your inability to win is scrub mentality, at least in SC.

 

[BLACKSTAR]

The arcades should be used primarily to beta-test for the console version. On consoles you are limited to two patches, so it would be better to get the balance right first. Having a good arcade port will also generate buzz for console sales, like what happened with SF4. Arcades are in a decline, even in Japan though, so they shouldn't be the main focus. You can also make money through DLC on console with costume parts like you did with SC4. I was sort of disappointed that they didn't make more outfits.

I think the important thing with SCV gameplay is to make it good without making it like every other fighter. Soul Calibur's core features are manuevering, guard impact, and simple execution for the most part. I don't think everyone will agree with this- but I think a large part of SC's appeal, is that you don't really have a large memorization or execution component (outside of just frames and a couple of overhard moves such as Summon Suffering) before you get to the strategic side of the game.

I know Namco isn't going to listen to a random scrub, but if I was going to direct a Soul Calibur game, this approach is how I'd do it.

- Single player would have its main focus be on customizations. I would keep how it was done with SC4, but I would make more, much more, and that would be my DLC focus. I would make sure that the custom souls would be IDENTICAL to the real characters, so they would be tourney legal without problems.

- Instead of guest characters, I would have guest artists designing costumes/characters. Those would be DLC. Costume DLC that can be used on all characters should sell well, and doesn't offend DLC-haters. I wouldn't put it on the disk though, even if it was designed beforehand.

- Gameplay: I would go on the general principles of manuevering (8WR would be good), balance, GI (make it more effective), and simplicity (I'd ease the execution on the hardest moves such as Summon Suffering, balancing them out in different ways). With 8WR and GI being good, I could see turtling becoming an issue , so I'd buff throws slightly by giving them some tracking, having more delayable moves, and by giving grappler chars like Rock G+K throws that need a K break.
Balance would be the tricky part, and the public beta test that is an arcade version is how I'd handle that if I was designing things. The arcade version would have none of the single-player stuff though

- I'd make netcode the best I could. SF4 quality at worst, VF5 quality would be my goal. I'd try to have longish input buffers to help the netcode out, as some of the problem SC4 had with netcode was short input buffers.

Late, but I was reading through this thread, and this is one of the BEST posts I've seen so far. Agree with everything

They also need to make moves like your AAs, BBs, or like Xianghua's aK,K and other stuff HIT CONFIRMABLE. To me it doesn't really make since not to, and unless its GI'able for the second+ hit (which usually ISN'T the case, from my standpoint), the only reason to have to choose between different uses of your combo moves is from a frame standpoint, and usually the difference is negligable. I think things like this will really help with the mixup game, especially for poking characters like Talim, Xianghua, Raphael, and Seung Mina.

They also need to fix the guarding frames, because that will help decrease much of the SCIV scrubbery by making moves easier to punish. If GI's remain difficult in V as they are in IV, this point will be even more important in my opinion. Also, for lower tier characters (AND my girl Xianghua), why is half of their movelist negative ON HIT? Even on CH or for Guard Breaking moves? Why should we be punished for guessing correctly? I think this was the single, biggest problem in SCIV, and I keep hearing from alot of people that this point was why alot of people didn't understand the game.

Other than that, I LOVE SCIV. Its not perfect, and their are alot of other things I don't like about it, but Namco did get alot of things right with this game. Even now, with maybe the exception of VF5 (which is 5 years old, from an arcade standpoint), SC4 is the best looking fighting game of this generation, hands down. The cast is relatively balanced, and sits on a foundation only possibly surpassed by SC2 in the series. Best of all the game is fun and unique, and not another "me-too-street-fighter" like MK9 and MvC3 (though I'm hyped for MvC). Face it, a new SC is good news, because at the end of the day, 3D fighters are sorely lacking right now, and SC is one of the best. The only thing that beats it out to me is VF.

On a side note, I hope theirs alot more SC tournaments coming up this new year, cause I want to get out and play more of you


[/longrant]

 

[KingAce]

No, that's not my reason for believing that it is possible for Rock/Mina to win. I've learned Rock, I understand his mechanics and the mind game potential that he has. He isn't hopeless, he just requires a highly skilled and dedicated player to win, just like Kura with Talim. And I've fought many great Mina players. I actually have to think to beat them. These characters are underrated due to so many people who don't use them, that just go with the popular opinion that they are garbage (I myself once thought Rock was garbage until I learned him), and then there are the players that use them but can't win with them so they blame the character.

Right now I find Dampierre in SCBD to be the most fun character for me out of the entire cast (even more fun than Vader), and I'm planning to use him in SC5, regardless of what tier he will be. And I'll be damned if he is "sc4 rock tier" and people tell me that I wont win with him. I'm not gonna blame the character, and I'm gonna prove people wrong. Just like how I mained Talim in SC3 regardless of her being one of the worst in the game. To me blaming the character for your inability to win is scrub mentality, at least in SC.

Unfortunately those are just empty words OOF. Tiers matter and so does balance stating other words might make you look macho or whatever but it's uneducated and retarded.

First of all character knowledge plays a huge role especially early on in a games life. I used to think Maxi was absurdly good, I got my ass beat so bad by a maxi player I can still feel the anxiety of those losses. But when I finally learned maxi's frames...lol it's pathetic.

Most of the wins players get early on are out of ignorance, the more we play, experience and learn the game, tiers become more and more self evident. The kura was a great player to begin with, he's reaction is way better than your best NA players, same with Omega, however we must take into a count how much did people know about Zas or Talim back then?

Fact is OOF you won't win any SC4 tournament with Mina or Rock, if you do I will give you money. You might get past some people out of your skill alone, but people close to your skill will demolish you more than they would have otherwise, why? Cause the tools you picked are ineffective.