Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate

[Mr.Wah]

I think I'm starting to understand. A few thoughts occur to me:

- During stun, the point is to extend or launch (or knockdown, but I don't know why you'd do that yet). Using mid punches and kicks makes sense, and using lows make sense. But what about highs? Low holds duck right under high attacks, but does that make them "off limits", or do those high attacks act as "virtual lows" inside the stun?

- Are there "NC" strings within a stun? i.e. if I put a guy into a stun, he can critical hold out. But if I PP him, can he high hold the second P? If they are NC within the stun, are they different from regular NC strings on normal hit?

- Carrying on with the stun, I can go for the Critical Burst (mid punch) or balls-out for the launch (mid kick). But I also have a high kick launch. I should be using this too, right?

- Does anyone in the game have low launchers?

- If an opponent holds it seems to change the advantage gained off the stun. It feels like there's no time to think, either input attacks on faith, or wait for the hold and throw.

If I wait for the hold and attack, it usually gets blocked... or I hit, but I lose my stun (?) Is it because I'm too slow?

1) Knockdowns are actually there if your character has a ground game or anti-wake-up setup. Highs are the fastest attacks and are typically used to extend the stun in a quick way. The problem with low holding is that you're susceptible to mids, and low holding is considered crouching. Many mids have different effects on a crouching opponent including putting them in a deeper stun (i.e. sit down).

2) Yes. An example is Bayman's 1PP and 2KK. Both are guaranteed on Counter hit or in stun.

3) You should be using the high launcher if you think they might predict a Critical burst. It's part of the mind game as CB! is a mid

4) Yes. The VF characters, or at least Akira.

5) Pretty much, they make it so it's not so much reactionary punish but prediction that is key. Some would say that if SF4 is 60% mental and 40% technical, DOA is 80% mental and 20% technical.

You can recover from a stun with mashing?

Yes, you can stagger escape many of the stuns by mashing directions, punch, or kick. Not all, but many. The game just doesn't tell you when to stagger escape (Hint: It's any time you're in critical state).

 

[Age_of_Truth]

In the Alpha Demo and Dead or Alive Dimensions they added 8 frames of recovery when you hold out of critical, this definitely helped, but was removed from the game at the E3 build.

Damn why did they remove the change? Did they ever explain?

 

[DrakeAldan]

That's exactly my problem too. Screw these online mashers. Here I am trying to play intelligently and they're just smashing out buttons and beating me every time.

Well, if they're attacking, you can't throw them. (Unless you use an offensive hold, apparently, which can interrupt like regular SC throws. I guess I need to use Takedown at advantage more often.)

Trying to hold them takes matchup (string) experience. I don't know the half of this game, it seems like you can get by off of string ignorance alone.

You can try to get a CH, but... It's online... and...

As for the block stun, the disadvantage is applied once the 'string input' window expires. So the player can delay the string but once the string input window time expires it begins the - or + advantage.

well I mean, in SC, you have moves with short blockstun, and moves with long blockstun. A lot of moves have long blockstun, so you can fit inputs in there. There's a 20 frame buffer window to help with that, too. If someone is mashing BB in your face it's easy to interrupt them. The general action is slower, is what I'm trying to say, I guess.

if I'm reading you right, in this game, the delay window is the blockstun- which is hardly anything, these windows are not that big.

so, someone's mashing in my face, I go, "I gotta get this guy off me. But, I have advantage blocking all this, let's go for a 6P."

Works in VF, block something, go for the CH mid elbow. Right?

so I wait for the string to end, then go for the 6P and... I'm late. I get CH out of my 6P even though I have the advantage.



The game seems a lot faster than Tekken or SC. In those games, the blockstun is usually long, even though something might be -10 on block, both characters take a long time getting there.

In this game -10 is... bam there it is LOOK LOOK LOOK oh it's gone

Like some kind of flash. (Like trying to punish Pyrrha's 236B with 3B every time, the blockstun's so short, you're not getting it unless you predict it.)

And it's not like I can't deal with that, fast-paced sounds kind of nice. But... Online!!!

I can't duck the Dragon Kick even though it's used at really obvious times. It feels like Mitsurugi SCIV 1A all over again. And I know this is just compounding with my matchup ignorance and not knowing the right timing to retaliate.

The netcode is not as good as SCV's or TTT2's so this is distressing, considering the game is much more demanding, it seems to me.



But whatever. I know the only way to beat online is strong theory. Back to studying.

Use a low throw. Everyone has them in DOA. They are not just a special quirk of a few characters like SC.

I don't have the reaction time for this... I guess I'll get used to it...

You can recover from a stun with mashing?

if they mash out the critical hold, I mean.

If they don't do anything when they're stunned, you get a lot of time before they can guard, you can hit them at an easy, leisurely pace, or use slower moves.

If they mash out the hold, your options just shrank in an instant. If you're not paying attention you'll lose the stun opportunity. You might hit them, but then it'll be normal hit, and most of my stuff is - on normal hit... which means I'm getting mashed on again.



This game doesn't have a guard meter, though. I can work with that, at least.

5) Pretty much, they make it so it's not so much reactionary punish but prediction that is key. Some would say that if SF4 is 60% mental and 40% technical, DOA is 80% mental and 20% technical.

And you guys run Best of 5, too. As you should, if reading is that important in this game.

I can just imagine EVO running DOA with Best of 3. Oh boy.

 

[Djangoknight]

Well, if they're attacking, you can't throw them. (Unless you use an offensive hold, apparently, which can interrupt like regular SC throws. I guess I need to use Takedown at advantage more often.)

if they mash out the critical hold, I mean.

If they don't do anything when they're stunned, you get a lot of time before they can guard, you can hit them at an easy, leisurely pace, or use slower moves.

If they mash out the hold, your options just shrank in an instant. If you're not paying attention you'll lose the stun opportunity. You might hit them, but then it'll be normal hit, and most of my stuff is - on normal hit... which means I'm getting mashed on again.

everyone has at least 1 throw that can punish anything -8 mostly it is their 4T or 6T

as for critical hold being mash the stun is still the same as stagger escape on fastest so your options are still the same if it was a "legit" stun combo.

i.e. Tina 6K is +31 but +22 on fastest stagger escape, so you need to look for Mid-P/K or highs that are 21 frames that keep the stun going or launch. and if they Hold out it isn't gonna matter for the Stun, and if you were waiting for the Hold you would punish with a Throw. Throw are Hi Counter on to holds, for i.e. tina has 2 special throws on counter [3]64T 120 damage on Hi Counter or 33T 105 damage on Hi Counter.

 

[Mr.Wah]

Damn why did they remove the change? Did they ever explain?

Unfortunately yes. They removed it because they added them to the 3-point hold system that Dimensions and the Alpha Build had. They felt it was a balance to the fact that you could counter any mid with 4H. By hearing the fan demand to go to 4-point for DOA5 they removed the universal "advanced hold" for mid punches and mid kicks and removed those additional recovery frames. Their reasoning was, "People wouldn't use the hold if it was 4-point AND had the extra recovery."

To that, the competitive players told them they were wrong but we'll see how it plays out. It should be noted that the most competitive version of DOA (3.1) before DOA5 was also using the 30 frame holds (with 28 frames for low holds) and was still usable due to the Natural Combos and punishment damage they provided.