The Christians Thread

[HeeeeresJonny86]

I'm not here to make waves and I never saw any of the posts that got deleted. I simply feel that agnostics, atheists and Christians should work toward understanding each others ideas, even if they aren't the same. So in the spirit of open dialogue, I'll post my [edited] response to a question UnseenWombat posted in the Atheist thread. If you'd like to discuss or reply further, feel free.

Back on track, a question for discussion.

What is the point of it all? What meaning do you derive from life if you don't think you're going to live forever? Some people have answered my previous question about why they do good even though they don't believe in an absolute standard of good, but this question is, "why do anything?" Given that you're going to die, what is the point of all this striving?

Is it to make the world a better place for those around you or those who come after you? Why bother? They're not you, so you won't experience that benefit. I guess the molecules that make you will return to the soil, grow up into the grass and be eaten by cows or rabbits and assimilated into a new person someday, but the thing you call "you" just disappears into the void. No matter what great things you accomplish, all the future (and present) people you're benefiting are, just like you, going to wink out of existence in the same way. And after they do all the striving that, granted, you've made a little easier through your work and sacrifice, they'll be gone just like you and all that will amount to nothing. And the other question is why are some things good, and other things bad anyway? If I hurt someone, or even kill them, we all come to the same end anyway, right? What difference does it make how we get there? Whether me in jail for hitting some guy I don't like with a hammer, or him living the rest of his life as a vegetable?

I guess I am getting back to the same question. Why bother to do good if there is no standard of good to begin with? Just the cold hard truth of death and the universe.

What is important about life? When it's gone, nothing you ever did will matter. Even if you accomplish the most important things and leave a legacy that people will remember for generations, (which very few people manage to do), no matter what you do, nothing will save even those future people from coming to the same inevitable end that you come to, (as though that mattered to you). I guess through scientific advancements maybe you might extend their lifespans, but for what purpose? Just so they can strive longer until they die?

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that for the most part, Atheists just try to avoid thinking about this question and live life in the present. Throwing their entire body and soul into building sandcastles that are going to be washed away with the next wave. You work so hard, struggle and sacrifice and for what? So that someone else will reap the benefits. I guess if you focus all your attention on the present and never think about the future, maybe you could derive some meaning from the things you do, but for me, if I thought this was all there is, it would drive me mad. Death just makes life absurd and pointless.

I'll address your first question with a question of my own. If the life we have here is only a precursor to the eternal happiness heaven provides, then what meaning does it really have? I personally don't ascribe to the belief that any part of human beings is eternal. Nor should it be. "Eternity" is a concept that I can't even really get my head around. I mean, humans live at most 70, 80 maybe 100 or so years if they're lucky. When I think of all the time during my short 26 years on this planet that I've spent sitting around bored with nothing to do and project that over an eternity, I don't believe I'd be able to retain my sanity after the first millenia or so. Eventually I'll have learned and done everything there is to learn and do. Then what? I think that the fact our time alive is limited makes it all the more valuable. None of us knows when or how our lives will end, so it's up to us to make the most of the time we have. I think the struggle to find meaning in each of our lives is part of what makes us "human". For some, it's financial success, for others it's starting a family or leaving a legacy. I truly believe that it's the responsibility of each person to give their life meaning.

As far as the question of "why bother to do good if there is no standard of good to begin with?" Allow me to ask, "What IS the standard of good?" Do you even know? I don't believe if you asked this question to a thousand people you'd get the same answer twice. IMO "good" and "evil" are empty, abstract concepts that don't have a basis in real life. What's "good" to some can be viewed as evil by "others". And which of us really has the authority to say who's right or wrong. The big things like not killing or stealing go more toward our continued survival as a species than anything else. Hell, even these things can be rationalized and justified by most. If "good" and "evil" are judged on a sliding scale, then what real basis do they have?

I had a christian upbringing and I ultimately chose to reject the philosophy based on the heaven/hell system itself. Let's take all bias and emotion out of the equation and examine the system. The requirements to enter heaven are as follows: 1. Accept that the christian god is the "one true God" 2. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins. 2. Accept that the christian god is the "one true God". If you do not meet these requirements at the end of your life, you are sent to hell to suffer for an eternity. The only evidence you have to support these beliefs is text from an unknown group of authors written thousands of years ago and in all likelihood altered due to numerous rewrites and translations. The supposedly omnipotent and all powerful deity that the text describes chooses to remain invisible and only indirectly involved with humans despite having the ability to do otherwise. He instead chooses to make accepting his existence a matter of absolute faith despite offering very little evidence to do so. Those who reject his existence, those who are unsure, and those who have not heard his message are all judged equally and sent to suffer for all of eternity regardless of any of the deeds performed during their lives. The second requirement asks us to accept something even more preposterous: the premise that a man was crucified, remained dead for three days, reanimated and then ascended into the sky without dying again. Admittedly, there's a lot we still don't know about medicine, but it's pretty much held as universally true that once something/someone dies it remains dead. Events like resurrection [read not resuscitation; he was dead for 72 hours] have never been witnessed by anyone alive in our time. Events like that simply don't happen in our time, so how can we logically accept that they happened then? Now I ask you. Is this a fair system? If you took a survey of all the people alive on the planet right now, an overwhelming majority of them probably wouldn't meet both of these requirements. Some belong to other religions, some have not heard the message, some have simply chosen not accept the idea. Does that really mean they deserve an eternity of suffering?

Now I'll freely admit that growing up in the church was a positive environment for me and that there are many moral lessons to be found in the bible. In fact, church has been a positive influence for a lot of people in all walks of life. If I have kids, I'll probably try to find a good church for us all to attend. Not so much because I agree with Christianity's main tenets (I don't), but because it's a nurturing environment filled with good people. If Christianity is what you truly need to believe, then I who am I to question it? But I don't believe religion has any place in politics, medicine, public education or any other system that affects the entire population. The idea of a governing body making religiously motivated decisions quite frankly scares me.

 

[UnseenWombat]

Thank you Jonny for the thoughtful and respectful answer.

Regarding your points dealing with people of other faiths and condemnation, take a look at some of the previous posts where we've discussed it.

Personally, I think that death (in the atheist sense) makes this life meaningless. No matter what you do, in the end it's all for nothing. I hear a lot of people say that life is precious because it's so short, but IDK what they really mean by that. Whether you get financial success, start a family or leave a legacy, like you suggested, once you're dead, what good did it do you? In all honesty, I can't comprehend that. Everything that people do seems to just be to distract them from the inevitable. There's no difference between regular people and the prisoner condemned to die tomorrow. Just the number of distractions we can cram in before we all go to the same place.

On the other hand, if we're going to live eternally, what we do here is of enormous importance. You think that it will be boring, but I don't think so. The Bible says we'll be given new, incorruptible bodies, presumably with brains that are able to deal with what you think, (with your imperfect, corruptible mind), will be a monotonous existence. Right now, understanding the concept of eternity is not possible, and you're right to feel overwhelmed, but I think when we get there, it will make sense.

 

[SBA]

A lot of mine were too. I think it was because they were responses to the posts that he meant to delete. Not to delete your contributions. They were just out of context without the previous posts.

Bingo

And with that I close this thread. UnseenWombat, I say start a pm convo with folks that are actually interested in learning more about Christianity.