The Christians Thread

[UnseenWombat]

This is not a very good analogy, because it doesn't account for a number of things that atheists are criticising when they point to God's desire for worship. It is more like if a father thrusts some money into someone's hands - without them asking for it - and providing no way for them to return it that does not result in them going to hell. He then demands the present, also with the threat of eternal punishment looming for those who don't comply. There are a number of conclusions we can draw from this that are extremely damaging to the idea of loving, non-megalomaniacal God, but I'm sure they're sufficiently obvious.

Right, now on to the doctrine of hell and eternal punishment. What you posted is another misunderstanding that I addressed it earlier in the thread. Here it is.

Good question. I assume you don't have kids, so maybe it's hard to understand, but even I, as an imperfect human father, am not looking for ways to punish my kids. I'm not sitting there with my notepad, jotting down every time they do something wrong and then open it up in the evening and dole out whippings based on how bad they were during the day. So our perfect heavenly father, who's a much better parent than me, and loves his children more than I love mine, wants what's best for us too, not to punish us based on how bad we've been.

Now that doesn't mean that the doctrine of eternal punishment is a lie. It's right there in the Bible all over the place, but the way I see it, and the way some other Christian philosophers have seen it, is that "the gates of hell are locked from the inside." Meaning, it's not God who condemns us to an eternity apart from him to suffer in the lake of fire, but the sinner himself voluntarily shuts himself away from God. I don't know if there's really a lake that's on fire all the time lol, or if that's just what it feels like to be separated from the source of all good in the universe, but there's no doubt that some people will be there. Look at some atheists. Not saying it applies to you, but they have such a hatred of God that I can honestly believe that even if he were right in front of their face, saying, "Okay, you wanted proof, here I am," they would still spit in his face, so to speak, and reject him.

The incentive for doing right then is just that we love our father and want him to be pleased with us, just like children do for their human father, and we trust that it's true when he tells us doing right is good for us just like when I tell my daughter to not spin while standing on a chair. Also, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but choosing right over wrong makes everyone feel better all around, including the person who's refraining from doing wrong.

Also,

Now, as I mentioned before God is forgiving, and as Suphy said the Christian doesn't have the weight of sin hanging over his head. And I'm sorry to keep drumming on the father-child analogy, but it really makes sense to me now. God wants nothing more than for his prodigal child to repent, just like when my daughter does something bad, I only want her to repent and do right from that point on. If I feel she needs punishment to achieve that end, I'll impose it. I don't do that perfectly, because I'm only human, but our perfect heavenly father knows just what we need. Perhaps just thethreat of hell is what we need. I'm not sure, but I do know that God isn't looking for ways to punish us, like is depicted in the classic "sinners in the hand of an angry God" sermon, but he's calling us to repentance.

And regarding people of other religions, which I know you didn't specifically ask about, but I'll mention anyway.

Let me also state that it doesn't necessarily follow that all adherents of other religions are universally condemned to eternal torture like the atheists keep accusing. C.S. Lewis (my hero, if you haven't already gathered that) said, "Though all salvation is through Jesus, we need not conclude that He cannot save those who have not explicitly accepted Him in this life. . . . we are not pronouncing all other religions to be totally false, but rather saying that in Christ whatever is true in all religions is consummated and perfected."

So, my point is that hell is not something God threatens to do to us if we don't do what he says. Hell is the natural state that we will be in if we don't. There is no other option. To be apart from God is hell.

I posted this in that regard:

Look at it this way: God is goodness. I don't mean that he's a good being, or that he does good things all the time, (though that's true too), but he is the embodiment of the notion which we call goodness. The people who will be condemned are those who willfully choose to separate themselves from goodness. There is no other source of goodness anywhere. He is it. Imagine this analogy. Suppose there were a single star in the entire universe with a planet revolving around it. Some people say, "We don't like this star. It's too yellow/hot/whatever," get on a spaceship and leave to live on some barren husk in the outer darkness. Would they then have any right to complain that they couldn't see because it was dark?

You seem to think God is some kind of policeman, sitting there with his radar gun looking for someone to chase down and give a ticket to. In reality he's our father, calling us to come over and live in the home he's made for us. Some people refuse and would rather sit in the outer darkness than enjoy his companionship. They have no right then to complain that they don't find anything good apart from the source of all goodness.

Also, you keep pointing out that worship in no way benefits God, but to my mind this only serves to reinforce the idea that in demanding it, God is being self-aggrandising; if he doesn't benefit, why does he want us to waste considerable time and resources honouring him? The Bible itself even describes God as being "jealous".

The purpose is to benefit us, as I've explained above. We can only be made perfect if we are in the right relation to God. Just like the spokes on a wheel can only function properly if they're in the right relation to the hub and the rim. That analogy is imperfect though, because in a wheel, the hub and rim can't work without the spokes, but it gives you an idea of why we need to be right with God. Not for his benefit, but ours.

This is a very vague statement, and so difficult to discuss. What do "direction" and "assistance" mean here? Which Christians are perfect?

I understand your confusion. That was vague. This is what I'm referring to regarding perfection:

That is why He warned people to "count the cost" before becoming Christians. "Make no mistake," He says, "if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away.

But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect—until my Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less."

And yet—this is the other and equally important side of it— this Helper who will, in the long run, be satisfied with nothing less than absolute perfection, will also be delighted with the first feeble, stumbling effort you make tomorrow to do the simplest duty. As a great Christian writer (George MacDonald) pointed out, every father is pleased at the baby's first attempt to walk: no father would be satisfied with anything less than a firm, free, manly walk in a grown-up son. In the same way, he said, "God is easy to please, but hard to satisfy."

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

I dont like the vibe in this thread anymore. makes me hesitant to post cause I dont wanna get flamed.

*goes and hides in corner and sucks thumb*

 

[SBA]

I dont like the vibe in this thread anymore. makes me hesitant to post cause I dont wanna get flamed.

*goes and hides in corner and sucks thumb*

*puts on cape*
I got this.

 

[UnseenWombat]

Right, and that's exactly what I didn't want to happen to this thread and what I specifically asked for in the original post. It was supposed to just be a discussion where people could have some fellowship and those who were interested could ask honest questions, not rhetorical questions that they've already formulated their own uninformed answers to as a means of making a point.

Sorry HRD, if you, or anyone else has such honest questions and doesn't want to post here, feel free to send me a PM. I'll give my best shot at an honest answer.

 

[TerminatorCortez]

You honestly think God cares if you believe in him or not? Religion is irrevelent, a man born in a Hindu religious family probably thinks that his religion is the truth. I'm a Christian but sometime I believe that we have a misunderstanding of God. Like Jesus was totally not the Jewish messiah who was suppose to save them.