The Christians Thread

[UnseenWombat]

Moneymuffins, I understand what you're saying. Hell is not a nice thing to be sure. And other people have brought up the fact that the very concept, at face value, seems to be at odds with the loving, forgiving nature of God. (I wrote about that in an earlier post.) I know though that you're not referring to that though. Your complaint against the doctrine of hell seems to be, in it's most concise form, that you don't like it. No one has ever liked it. You're not supposed to. But the corrolary to what you're saying, that the thought of hell is somehow damaging to the people over whom the threat looms is just as invalid as the idea that the concept of police, courts, jail, or community service is to people who do wrong against man-made laws. We would never think of doing away with the justice system just because we thought it might make people scared, or damage their psyches. If someone does wrong, they should suffer the consequences.

Now, as I mentioned before God is forgiving, and as Suphy said the Christian doesn't have the weight of sin hanging over his head. And I'm sorry to keep drumming on the father-child analogy, but it really makes sense to me now. God wants nothing more than for his prodigal child to repent, just like when my daughter does something bad, I only want her to repent and do right from that point on. If I feel she needs punishment to achieve that end, I'll impose it. I don't do that perfectly, because I'm only human, but our perfect heavenly father knows just what we need. Perhaps just thethreat of hell is what we need. I'm not sure, but I do know that God isn't looking for ways to punish us, like is depicted in the classic "sinners in the hand of an angry God" sermon, but he's calling us to repentance. You too. Catholicism might not be for you. There are many other denominations where you might feel more comfortable. Why don't you look around and find out? ;)

To the guys who said we shouldn't even be discussing this, I did talk to Suphy before posting, and we decided to give it a try. We're grown ups here, we can discuss sensitive topics without flipping out or getting salty. I realize that the atheists legitimately and sincerely believe what they do, based on their own understanding of the world. I think most of them see the same thing in me. And there's no reason to be upset that they came into the thread. It wasn't only meant for christians, aside from the deliberately antagonistic posts, which were mostly ignored, the atheists, with their tough questions, have contributed as much to the discussion as the Christians. I'm thankful for them.

 

[JDub]

Jwdink, you bring up a good point in your previous 2 posts. Is there something different and better about Christianity, or is any old faith just fine as long as you sincerely believe it?

Any old faith? I think you're trying to ask for respect or reverence towards your religion, yet don't seem to be reciprocating. If you want people to afford you proper deference it wouldn't hurt to do so for them as well.

You're not the first person to bring it up, a lot of philosophers have wondered the very sam thing and have thought about it for a very long time. I have found very convincing arguments from Christian apologists like CS Lewis and Alvin Plantinga, that Christianity is indeed superior to other religions and it is to be preferred regardless of your geographic location or your culture. Others have found that out also. That's why you hear about people in muslim countries being put out of their homes for converting.

This is getting really close to megalomania. I mean, not close, the text book definition. You don't think Christians are doing the same thing somewhere? Oh, I'm forgetting the teachings of Christ (a Jewish man btw) where he said "What I say is superior to anything anyone else has ever said and ever will". Christianity is superior... do you even know how dangerous such a line of thought in a culture is? Has history taught you nothing? It's exactly this line of thought that has enabled atrocities throughout history in the name of your superior religion.

I won't go into all the various arguments, you can find them written much better than my poor ability to paraphrase them with a quick Google search for Christian apologetics. As you can probably guess, over the course of 2000 years, just about any attack that can be levelled against Christianity has been fielded.

And throughout history, I'm pretty sure Christianity has done it's own fair share of attacking. But so what. You're a genuine person and I'm not going to hold it a against you for choosing whatever conduit you choose too channel your better nature. Though, I'm not seeing much of that better nature in this recent post. You limit your own God way more than I do. You talk as if God can only support good people who follow a specific dogma. I don't think there is a God, but if there was, he wouldn't burn and torture for an eternity a good person who aided his fellow man, gave back as much as he took, and was devout in the positive principles of his religion. Even if that person was Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Hindu or Voodoo. The bible was written by man just as any other religious text. Don't assume that any of them are manuals to a God's thought process.

I am a Christian~ I have been since I was 7 years old. I personally believe,love,and completely trust Jesus Christ. He is the one person who will never betray me. Who will always remain with me through thick and thin. I know I have my struggles. But, I am confident through my faith in Him, I will over-come them one day! Another reason I believe in Jesus so strongly is because he saved me from extreme poverty. He shed love and kindness and mercy on my family and brought us up from where we were. I am eternally His. No one...will EVER shake my faith on Him. I love Him so much. Well that's all I have to say about that.

It's good to find something that moves you. But I'm kind of an odd duck I guess. I'm never so moved as when I see people bridging cultural/religious gaps to help and care for one and other. I don't remember which Southern State or Town, but some people (surely not Christians) burnt down a Mosque. A Christian Church just down the street opened their doors and hearts to the Muslims. Gave them a floor for them to pray and practice Islam even. I'm sure both sides formed bonds. Bonds of respect, friendship, and maybe even love. All without losing their own faith. Things like this happen a lot more than you think. It's just not controversial or outlandish so it doesn't grab a lot of headlines.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS GOING ON ABOUT? I'M ENJOYING MYSELF.

 

[ParaB]

As much as I really want to contribute an original thought here, I feel that everything I will ever have to say about this topic has already been elegantly summed up by Mr. Hitchens:

The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.

sorry to get serious...continue the fun boys!

 

[UnseenWombat]

You're misrepresenting the commandments to try to make a point. Regarding simply the first three, I will repost this:

Spoiler

...Consider the First Commandment—"You shall have no other Gods before me.” Note that the Commandments begin with God—not with man. We start with the vertical—not the horizontal—because until a man has a right relationship with God, his relationships with other men will never be right. Even the order of the Commandments teaches us that God must come first.

We may sum up the teaching of this Commandment in three simple statements:

1. You must have a God.
2. You must have only one God.
3. Your God must be the God of the Bible.

God must be first. That’s where the Ten Commandments begin. Joy Davidman puts it this way: “Whatever we desire, whatever we love, whatever we find worth suffering for, will be Dead Sea fruit in our mouths unless we remember that God comes first.”

But what does this mean in a practical sense? What is demanded of us?
A. Loyalty

A man purchased a statue of Christ at an auction and put it in the living room. The next day his wife decided the statue belonged in a different room. When their five-year-old daughter saw her mother moving the statue, she blurted out, “Where are you going to put God?”

Great question. Where are you going to put God? That’s what the First Commandment is asking you: “Where are you going to put God? Will he have the first place in your life? Or will you stick him in some out-of-the-way place where he won’t cause any trouble?”

God must be first! That’s the message that rings out from Mount Sinai. He won’t play second fiddle. He won’t take second place. He must be first in your life. And that means loyalty to him.

In one of his books Chuck Colson tells of speaking to a group of Hindus in India. As he shared his testimony about Jesus Christ, he found them extraordinarily attentive. They smile and nodded and agreed with everything he said. Afterwards he commented to his hosts on how receptive his audience had been to the Christian gospel. “Oh no,” they explained, “You don’t understand. To the Hindus Jesus is just one among many gods. To them, your “accepting” Christ is like them accepting another god into their list of gods. Jesus is just one of many gods to the Hindus.”

A few days later Chuck Colson spoke to another audience of Hindus and had a similar experience. But this time a Hindu scholar came up afterward and said, “I believe exactly what you believe.” Chuck decided to put him to the test. “I don’t think you really believe what I believe. When I say Jesus Christ is the Son of God, I mean he is God come in human flesh. He is not just one among many or even the best of many, but he is the one true God who appeared on earth in human flesh. You must give your complete and supreme allegiance to this Jesus Christ who came from heaven—to him and to no one else.” The Hindu thought for a moment and said, “You’re right. I don’t believe what you believe. Now I must go home and think about the things you have said.”

That’s the issue, isn’t it? Jesus Christ must have the first place in your life. He will not share his glory with anyone or with anything. He must be first—not simply the first among many or the best of the rest—but he must be pre-eminent in all things.
B. Honesty

The First Commandment calls us to personal honesty concerning our ultimate allegiance. Here’s a simple test. Take five minutes this week to get alone in a quiet place and answer these questions: Who or what is my god? What am I dedicating my life to? Where have I placed my ultimate allegiance? What things in life are most
important to me?

If we are honest, some of us will not find it easy to deal with those questions because they probe at a difficult and deep level. You say, “Jesus Christ is my God.” Is he really? Does he have your full allegiance? Is it possible that while claiming to worship Jesus Christ, you are in truth worshiping an entirely different set of gods?

—Your business could be your god.
—Your career could be your god.
—Your education could be your god.
—Your social set could be your god.
—Your family—yes, even your children—could be your god.

Think about the way you spend your money, the way you spend your leisure time, the things you daydream about when life gets dull.

What’s a god? It’s anything that provides your ultimate source of meaning and happiness in life. How easy it is for everyday concerns to be elevated to godlike status … even by religious people who go to church every Sunday!

Everyone has a god! Even the atheist has made a “god” out of his belief in no god. Everyone looks to someone or something for meaning and happiness and fulfillment in life. The First Commandment is God’s way of saying, “Make sure you look at me first. Give me first place in your life.”
C. Repentance

Repentance! What does repentance have to do with the First Commandment? Everything!


—"No other gods”
—"No substitutes”
—"No cheap imitations”
—"No silence”

No silence! Yes, this commandment demands not only inner loyalty, but outward allegiance. No dipping the color, no hiding our identity. We belong to God, he must be first, and we must let the world know.

What is there to repent of?

—Our moral cowardice
—Our complicity with evil
—Our tendency to substitute human gods for the true God
—Our failure to speak out when God’s name is blasphemed
—Our silence in the time of crisis.

They kill babies in America. Where is the church of Jesus Christ? If he were here, would he be silent? Would he look the other way? How can his people remain silent while the unborn are slaughtered?

“Repent,” says the Lord. “Change your evil ways. You are my people, yet you have turned away from me. I must have first place in your life.”


D. Courage

It wasn’t easy for Moses to bring these words to Israel. The people lived in a world filled with false gods:

—Isis
—Moloch
—Baal
—Astarte
—Ashtoroth

Ancient names to us; daily realities for the Israelites. They lived in a world that offered them a god of fertility, a god of the harvest, a god of the sun and a god of the moon. To them, this call to pure monotheism was a call to reject the world they saw around them every day.

Courage! That’s what it takes to say no to the false gods.

We take these words so lightly. But God is deadly serious when he says “No other gods.” He means it!

Exclusive? Yes!
Intolerant? Yes!
Non-pluralistic? Yes!

Biblical religion is all of those things. Thus it is that true religion always runs against the spirit of the age.
Here in Oak Park we have made a trinity of false gods:

Diversity
Tolerance
Pluralism

But these are false gods! And we have bowed down before them!

Writing in the aftermath of World War II, Elton Trueblood looked back to those few brave German Christians who had the courage to oppose Adolph Hitler. When so many others went along or simply kept silent, a few, a courageous handful, would not go along with the majority. Trueblood asked the question, “What made these people different? Why did they say no when everyone else said yes?” His answer was simple: “They had the First Commandment.” That made all the difference. When you have the First Commandment, when you take it seriously as a way of life, you find the courage to stand against the crowd.

Let’s wrap up this first message with four simple points of application.

First Steps to New Life

1. We desperately need the Ten Commandments because we have drifted far from God’s design for life.
2. Because the drift has been personal, the return must be personal.
3. The return begins with a personal commitment to put God first in everything.
4. When we contemplate our lives in light of the First Commandment, we are driven to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:4 says that “Christ is the end of the law for all who believe.” There are many ways to understand that verse, but it means at least this much: When we read the Ten Commandments and when we begin to examine our lives in light of God’s high demands, we are driven to the cross of Christ.

Life begins when you come to Jesus Christ. Until then you are merely existing. The First Commandment says, “Put God first and you will find life.”

St. Augustine put it well when he said, “Our hearts are made for Thee, O God, and we will not find rest, until we come to rest in Thee.” The First Commandment says, “Put God first and you will find rest.”

The first step to life is to take the First Commandment seriously. And the first step in the First Commandment is to consider your life in light of the cross of Christ. Embrace the cross. Put Christ at the center of your life. Confess him as Lord and Savior. There are nine other commandments but they will do you no good unless you remember that Jesus Christ comes first.

So as you can see, (I hope), the first 3 commandments aren't to benefit God, but to benefit us.

There's much more, and if you're really interested, it's here.

Also, I'd kinda like it if someone would respond to this:

I'd like to ask a question too that I've never really got a satisfactory answer to. Supposing that there is no God, no heaven, hell or afterlife at all. When we die, we cease to exist. What incentive is there for a person who believes that to live a moral life? Because you're making the world better for future generations? Why bother? You'll be dead, what do you care? Because you're making other people more comfortable in their lives? Why do you care, they're not you, so except for the people in your own social circle, there's no reason to help others. Because it's the right thing to do? Who determines what's right? Isn't what's right just whatever you need to do to make your own self as comfortable as you can for the present moment? I have trouble understanding the motivations of atheists to be moral. As for my own self, I would do whatever I could get away with if I thought there were no consequences for my actions, and I sure wouldn't expend any effort to help anyone other than my own friends and family, and even then only when it would somehow benefit me, directly or indirectly.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything when I asked it. I really don't know why you would bother to do good if doing bad would be more beneficial to you.