The Christians Thread

[UnseenWombat]

I meant to reply to some of these, but now is the first time I've been in front of the keyboard since yesterday.

I don't know how long this will last, but I hope it does. I'm an ex-agnostic turned Christian after a long period, I think it's a good thing.

That's so cool! I think I remember back in GI.com days when we had religion discussions, you were on the other side. It's good to see you've come around.

I was brought up morman (dont laugh). Had a falling out when I was like 12 and hadnt gone to church since. Up till a couple months ago. Im still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing. Cause Im at a point in my life where I could really use some guidance of some kind.

I dunno tho. Morman-ism (if thats a real word) just seems odd to me still. People look at you differently there it seems. Like if youre poor, your nothing but a hinderence to them. But if you got lots of money....ooohhhh its totally different.

Well, I don't want to say anything bad about the Mormons themselves, I've known some and aside from dressing weird on certain days lol, they're cool people and I'm sure most of them hold their beliefs with complete sincerity. But regarding the faith itself, you have to question the legitimacy of a religion that was started by a guy who was a convicted con-man running from the law. Just my opinion.

Yeah you got a point there.

But how do you decifer the bullshit religions from the legit ones? I have a feeling the answer is something to effect of "its just something you feel in your heart." So far I dunno if Ive gotten that feeling. Heck I even checked my buddy Budda. That guy always seems to be smiling everytime I see him (at least the fat one is).

Oh well. I dont want to give up. I need some spirtual structure for once in my life. And I need to learn how to deal with the stress and tough decisions that life brings us. And I hope to figure it out one day.

But how did you guys come up with the notion that "christianity is the right religion, as to where catholics are wrong." Well maybe not in those words but you know what I mean.

I don't think the catholics are wrong at all. Except for inconsequential stuff like eating fish on Fridays (which I'll address later when I answer Wandrian's post), really we believe mostly the same things.

I don't think the other religions are necessarily all wrong either. A lot of them, like Buddhism you mentioned, express some of the same truths that Christianity does, like live at peace with everyone, and don't lie and cheat and stuff. It's just that where they do differ, I have to accept that Christianity is right and they are wrong. I hate to just tell you to "go read this book," but Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis is a very convincing answer to exactly the questions you're asking. Especially the first 1/3 of the book. Many very skeptical people have read it and it changed their lives.

Definitely don't give up. God says he stands at the door and knocks, and if you'll let him in, he'll come in and have a meal with you. It sounds like you've opened the door, now you guys are just deciding what you want to have for dinner lol.

From the outside looking in I have always believed that a forgiving God is the more comforting idea of God, but I have problems with this idea. How can something truly be impermissible if God will forgive you? If God forgives you for doing wrong, what real incentive do you have against doing wrong?

Good question. I assume you don't have kids, so maybe it's hard to understand, but even I, as an imperfect human father, am not looking for ways to punish my kids. I'm not sitting there with my notepad, jotting down every time they do something wrong and then open it up in the evening and dole out whippings based on how bad they were during the day. So our perfect heavenly father, who's a much better parent than me, and loves his children more than I love mine, wants what's best for us too, not to punish us based on how bad we've been.

Now that doesn't mean that the doctrine of eternal punishment is a lie. It's right there in the Bible all over the place, but the way I see it, and the way some other Christian philosophers have seen it, is that "the gates of hell are locked from the inside." Meaning, it's not God who condemns us to an eternity apart from him to suffer in the lake of fire, but the sinner himself voluntarily shuts himself away from God. I don't know if there's really a lake that's on fire all the time lol, or if that's just what it feels like to be separated from the source of all good in the universe, but there's no doubt that some people will be there. Look at some atheists. Not saying it applies to you, but they have such a hatred of God that I can honestly believe that even if he were right in front of their face, saying, "Okay, you wanted proof, here I am," they would still spit in his face, so to speak, and reject him.

The incentive for doing right then is just that we love our father and want him to be pleased with us, just like children do for their human father, and we trust that it's true when he tells us doing right is good for us just like when I tell my daughter to not spin while standing on a chair. Also, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but choosing right over wrong makes everyone feel better all around, including the person who's refraining from doing wrong.

Here's one I've never heard a straight answer to. Maybe it's who I've asked or my interpretation of what they've said, but how does one reach a sound interpretation of the lessons of the bible? The commandmants are rather clear cut and simple, but the rest seems rather hazy in terms of which lessons are really of importance. Are some books more important than others in this way? How do you even come to these conclusions?

I'm going to assume at this point that this is the Official 8WR Christianity Q&A thread. Well, it sounds better that way to me.

That's another really good question. As you can see from all the different denominations that disagree on so many points of doctrine, there's no easy answer. Some people think it's of supreme importance that you worship on precisely the Sabbath day, some think all days are the same as long as you set aside some time to spend with God. Some think that we can't eat meat on certain days, or that certain kinds of meat aren't to be eaten at all (I know the 7th Day Adventists have a thing against pork), and others think that whatever God gives you can be eaten. (See Romans 14).

So according to that, a lot of stuff is inconsequential, (though you still shouldn't use it to cause strife among other believers), but there are things that are serious business. I read the Bible straight through for the first time last year, and the things that I saw stand out throughout the whole thing were 1) God hates violence against innocent people and 2) He also hates when people oppress the poor, or when they won't do anything to help them, and 3) he also hates IRL "trolling" as it's come to be called, meaning, doing nasty things to people just to ruin their lives, stuff like cheating someone out of their money, or divorcing your wife to chase after someone else. Those are the big things. As for everything else, if you take the time to really look into it, by doing something like reading through the Bible for example lol, and honestly try to determine God's will, he'll guide you to what you need to know.

Real Muslims are actually not violent at all, they're very respectful towards women and very tolerant towards people of other religions. I have a Catholic friend that went to Iran for Semana Santa (Catholic Easter in Spanish-speaking countries) and a local family actually invited him to have dinner in their house, saying that they didn't want someone to be alone in an important holiday of their religion. That really shocked me, and taught me a very important lesson: It is not the people that hate each other, it's just the governments and the armies that cause all the trouble. EVERYONE wants world peace, except for stupid-ass "leaders" that want to expand their power.

I'll believe that, for sure. And contrary to what Synraii posted, the atheist leaders have been just as bloodthirsty as the theist ones of the past. Look at Stalin or Mao. But just comparing body counts ignores the main point, that it's the leaders who will exploit whatever system is in place, or suits their needs the best, to do any horrible thing it takes to get ahead. That's not a religion versus atheism problem, it's a problem of people just being nasty to one another. Sadly the nastiest ones usually end up at the top, regardless of whether the system they're operating under is religious or not. That's why, like Wandrian said, it's not the religions that are the problem, it's the people.

snip

LOL!

How about this one?

 

[The Landslide]

That's so cool! I think I remember back in GI.com days when we had religion discussions, you were on the other side. It's good to see you've come around.

Yeah, I think I remember that. I'm not very good at apologetic discussions, so I try to stay out of them and do my own reading to decide. I feel like whenever people get into religious debates they are all trying to sell me something, and that was the same kind of vibe that made me turn away from Catholicism when I was younger.

Now I pretty much just stick to the Bible and try to read as many interpretations as possible to get my own ideas. I'm sure I'm opening myself up to some flawed reasoning somewhere down the line, but it's been a gradual process. At the moment I feel like the book is more important than anything else, and I still don't like the idea of idolizing the pope, saints and other things of that nature.

 

[Lasercakes]

Good question. I assume you don't have kids, so maybe it's hard to understand, but even I, as an imperfect human father, am not looking for ways to punish my kids. I'm not sitting there with my notepad, jotting down every time they do something wrong and then open it up in the evening and dole out whippings based on how bad they were during the day. So our perfect heavenly father, who's a much better parent than me, and loves his children more than I love mine, wants what's best for us too, not to punish us based on how bad we've been.

For some reason I thought you guys were, bluntly put, all about punishment. I don't know how much you condone any punishment on any level, but it sounds like it isn't what I thought it was. For me, punishment is a last resort. It is a lazy replacement for much better teaching methods or fixing the problem, but enough of that.

Now that doesn't mean that the doctrine of eternal punishment is a lie. It's right there in the Bible all over the place, but the way I see it, and the way some other Christian philosophers have seen it, is that "the gates of hell are locked from the inside." Meaning, it's not God who condemns us to an eternity apart from him to suffer in the lake of fire, but the sinner himself voluntarily shuts himself away from God. I don't know if there's really a lake that's on fire all the time lol, or if that's just what it feels like to be separated from the source of all good in the universe, but there's no doubt that some people will be there. Look at some atheists. Not saying it applies to you, but they have such a hatred of God that I can honestly believe that even if he were right in front of their face, saying, "Okay, you wanted proof, here I am," they would still spit in his face, so to speak, and reject him.

Well, I know that some hate other religions, the idea of god, and maybe even religious people, but I'm not convinced they actually hate him as they do a person. I think they'd be more likely to have a million questions for him.

The incentive for doing right then is just that we love our father and want him to be pleased with us, just like children do for their human father, and we trust that it's true when he tells us doing right is good for us just like when I tell my daughter to not spin while standing on a chair. Also, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but choosing right over wrong makes everyone feel better all around, including the person who's refraining from doing wrong.

I have two follow up questions:

I might just be splitting hairs with this first one, but would you pursue moral choices without the approval or disapproval of god or is his approval just bonus points or something?

If you believe in an afterlife, how can you convince me you really care what goes on in the present life? Why strain yourself to prevent tragedy in this life when all good souls heaven anyway?

 

[Mitalius]

You guy know why I believe in god? It was during the american revolution, where our continental army against a wealthy country with experienced trained military soldiers. It was near impossible to defeat them with little experianced soldiers, but they did it. Something had to come to play here.

 

[The Landslide]

For some reason I thought you guys were, bluntly put, all about punishment. I don't know how much you condone any punishment on any level, but it sounds like it isn't what I thought it was. For me, punishment is a last resort. It is a lazy replacement for much better teaching methods or fixing the problem, but enough of that.

The point is that God will forgive you as long as you are asking for forgiveness and are expressing true remorse. People get so hung up on the idea of punishment that they forget the true forgiving nature of God.