The Athiest Thread

[UnseenWombat]

Wow. I may attack you're beliefs but not your right to state them. Territory you're pretty close to treading on. You're now wearing your frustration on your sleeve. Good! But that is a low blow and I know you know better. If someone made an Atheist thread first a Christian thread would have soon followed. Not out of trolling but out of a sense of equality and fairness.

Hey, I'm sorry if I offended you. From my perspective though, the fact that there sprung up an atheist thread so soon after I posted mine seemed a lot like someone was trying to be a smart alec. I realize you've come to your conclusions about the nature of the world honestly, and I don't think you personally are trolling. I don't think, like the "hippy article" I posted said, that Atheists all can see the obvious existence of God and are just being contrary because they're "jerks."

IMHO all you have shown is how easy it is for fervor to trample reason. It still doesn't change my opinion of you overall, or diminish my appreciation for you presence overall. But, on this one, tiny, meaningless subject we will always remain at odds. Maybe enough discussion will desensitize us to our difference. I don't know. But I know being a Christian or an Atheist doesn't really effect what kind of person someone is overall.

Yes, and I know you've had a rough time with people judging you for your beliefs. That's not how they should behave. They should be, instead, trying to rationally explain to you why it's not such bunk as you think it is rather than just trying to shout you down. (As you can see from this thread though, both sides are guilty of it. Not that that makes it right.)

You can make assumptions that without a God we have no basis for morals or values. It makes it easier to devalue our ideas if their coming from Godless Heathens. But the sad fact to me is that you need God for morals and values. Maybe, if the threat of hell or the bribe of heaven is necessary for you to justify being a decent human, you're not really a decent human. But I give you more credit than that. I think you're a decent person regardless of belief. A belief that is relative to the traditions and cultures that you just happened to be born into. Us Atheist's actually beat all odds and should have pride in doing so.

No, I'm not a decent human. I think apart from God, I'd be a really bad guy. That's one of the main tenets of Christianity, that people are, by nature, bad. What is important is the choices we make and how we try to change that underlying nature.

"We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological make-up is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or the worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first tune, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.

And that leads on to my second point. People often think of Christian morality as a kind of bargain in which God says, "If you keep a lot of rules I'll reward you, and if you don't I'll do the other thing." I do not think that is the best way of looking at it. I would much rather say that every time you make a choice you are turning the central part of you, the part of you that chooses, into something a little different from what it was before. And taking your life as a whole, with all your innumerable choices, all your life long you are slowly turning this central thing either into a heavenly creature or into a hellish creature: either into a creature that is in harmony with God, and with other creatures, and with itself, or else into one that is in a state of war and hatred with God, and with its fellow-creatures, and with itself. "

But it's a pride that in daily life we have to guard closely. Do me a favor. Start telling people you're an Atheist. See for yourself. Let me know how just a month of it feels to you and then multiply that by a lifetime. It wouldn't hurt to see how virtuous your fellow Christian's seem when they see you as an outsider or worse. A cohort of the devil. Or a blind lost soul. As if the conclusions you come to have no value and are derived from either ignorance or a "tainted spirit".

I do think there is some ignorance you could purge from yourself, not to be judgmental or insulting, but perfectly honest. Some of the things you have said about Christianity show that you don't fully understand it. The way people have treated you for it is not right, and certainly not Christian, and I'd like to help you get a better understanding, if you're open to listening.

If you don't believe in evolution please stop reaping the benefits of evolutionary science. No more flue shots or vaccines. No genetic testing for the potential for cancers. If you don't believe it stop wasting resources and let God take care of you.

If you don't believe in one science you're discrediting them all because they are all derived from the same basic principles. The Scientific Method. The same processes that proved gravity, the law of thermal dynamics, relativity, also mapped the Universe using background radiation (microwaves). It also provided you with the computer's you post on. The cars you drive in, the cell phones you prolly dick off on. Cast it all aside. They are all results of the same processes and formulas that continue to discredit your God more and more.

Wait, wat? Where did I say that? There was a time that I didn't believe in evolution. I thought it was contrary to the other things I believe, but now I see it's not.

Was that meant for me or are you talking to someone else? Because I never said in this thread that I didn't believe in any of the sciences.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

But, on this one, tiny, meaningless subject

IS IT REALLY THAT MEANINGLESS IN TERMS OF WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT SOMEONE? IT CAN GIVE INSIGHT INTO HOW THEY SOLVE PROBLEMS IN GENERAL.


LOOK AT ALL THESE IDIOTS WHO THINK I'M STUPID BECAUSE I DON'T TAKE CHRISTIANITY SERIOUSLY LOLLLLL. YEAH, I'M SURE THEY'RE VERY BRIGHT INDIVIDUALS.

 

[JDub]

Hey, I'm sorry if I offended you. From my perspective though, the fact that there sprung up an atheist thread so soon after I posted mine seemed a lot like someone was trying to be a smart alec.

Maybe he was trolling. You'll have to ask him. Either way, it's only fair regardless of the original intent. But it was inevitable. And as I said, if Atheists posted a thread first, I'm sure Christians would have followed. It's only natural.

Yes, and I know you've had a rough time with people judging you for your beliefs. That's not how they should behave. They should be, instead, trying to rationally explain to you why it's not such bunk as you think it is rather than just trying to shout you down. (As you can see from this thread though, both sides are guilty of it. Not that that makes it right.)

Soo...no. You will not walk a mile in my shoes. You won't even try 30days of telling people you're an Atheist. Just to see where I'm coming from. I was a Baptist Youth Minister. I've walked a mile in your shoes.

There is no rational explanation for a magical entity playing chess with another magical entity for our souls. There is no rational explanation for what the end game for God vs Satan is. God started the Universe and put people in a Garden. Set a rule then didn't give them the knowledge to know breaking a rule is wrong. Kicked them out. They had kids who had kids with their kids and somehow we didn't inbreed ourselves out of existence. But from this inbred race of people comes the need for their Creator to wipe them all out with a flood, except for one family who then inbred some more. Kicking his creations out of Paradise and drowning all but a few of his creations and it still didn't pan out. Drastic times call for drastic measures so he comes to Earth as his own son born of a virgin. He needed to forgive us for being what he created so he instituted a "suicide by cop" scenario. We kill him, without knowing that killing him was all part of his master plan of enabling himself to forgive us. Or, if you don't believe in the Holy Trinity, we kill God's son to enable God's forgiveness. All this so we can either spend an eternity with him or in hell. Once again, to what end?

No, I'm not a decent human. I think apart from God, I'd be a really bad guy. That's one of the main tenets of Christianity, that people are, by nature, bad. What is important is the choices we make and how we try to change that underlying nature.

You should read up on the social behavior of animals number one. Many creatures of this planet do what is "right" by their own kind. No, they don't read the Bible. And if you are truly bad then everything else is a charade to stay in God's favor. I didn't know God liked charades.

"We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological make-up is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or the worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first tune, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.

I almost died. Thought for certain. Plowed a motorcycle into the back of a parked landscaping trailer. I only had time to think "This is it" before getting knocked silly. Kind of disappointing. Didn't have time to reflect or say goodbye. Just "This is it".

And that leads on to my second point. People often think of Christian morality as a kind of bargain in which God says, "If you keep a lot of rules I'll reward you, and if you don't I'll do the other thing." I do not think that is the best way of looking at it. I would much rather say that every time you make a choice you are turning the central part of you, the part of you that chooses, into something a little different from what it was before. And taking your life as a whole, with all your innumerable choices, all your life long you are slowly turning this central thing either into a heavenly creature or into a hellish creature: either into a creature that is in harmony with God, and with other creatures, and with itself, or else into one that is in a state of war and hatred with God, and with its fellow-creatures, and with itself. "

You can establish habits without God. You can make a decision without God. This is basic behavioral modification based on stimuli. Substitute winning God's favor with having pride in your own personal integrity and the end result will be the same.

I think there is some ignorance you could purge from yourself man, not to be judgmental or insulting, but perfectly honest. Some of the things you have said about Christianity show that you don't fully understand it. The way people have treated you for it is not right, and certainly not Christian, and I'd like to help you get a better understanding, if you're open to listening.

Christians who don't behave in a way you condone aren't any more or less Christian than yourself. You're pretty quick to toss fellow Christians under the bus for faltering.

Wait, wat? Where did I say that? There was a time that I didn't believe in evolution. I thought it was contrary to the other things I believe, but now I see it's not.

Was that meant for me or are you talking to someone else? Because I never said in this thread that I didn't believe in any of the sciences.

Yeah, that last part is an after thought...but all Science adheres to the same rules. If you discredit one you discredit them all. Being since it operates on evidence. Faith doesn't. That's why Creationist's have a hard time when they try to take on evolution in the courts. Courts rule based on empirical evidence as well. Something Creationist's can't produce. But for most Christian's faith isn't enough. That's why they try to prove it. But if it's proven, therefore known, it's not faith. Knowledge is the destruction of faith. That's why faith discourages knowledge. Personal knowledge, and scientific knowledge. If you know who you are, and know you are a truly good person, faith can't tell you you're not therefore can't offer itself as the solution for being the bad person it says you are. It's no different than marketing today. You don't look good unless you buy my product. You have flaws that my product will hide or fix. What? I didn't know I was so flawed but the guy selling me the fix says I am so I must need his product.

IS IT REALLY THAT MEANINGLESS IN TERMS OF WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT SOMEONE? IT CAN GIVE INSIGHT INTO HOW THEY SOLVE PROBLEMS IN GENERAL.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a lot of believers compartmentalize their beliefs. They have to really. There's no other way around the cognitive dissonance.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a lot of believers compartmentalize their beliefs. They have to really. There's no other way around the cognitive dissonance.

I TEND TO USE INDUCTIVE THINKING. I COME TO CONCLUSIONS BASED ON INCIDENTAL KNOWLEDGE.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning


LOOKING AT THEISM, COMBINED WITH MANY OTHER ASPECTS OF A PERSON’S BEHAVIOUR, I CAN SOMETIMES KNOW THINGS THAT I NORMALLY SHOULDN'T. FUNNY STUFF.


BUT YOU’RE RIGHT. A MORE SERIOUS APPROACH SHOULD BE TO REASON FROM THE INSIDE-OUT.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

"Why bother to do good if there is no standard of good to begin with?"

Why does there have to be an objective standard for morality? Why can't we as human beings have the courage to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong? Besides, isn't that what people do anyway? Everyone has some disagreement about what ought to be and what shouldn't be.

Laws provide us with loose guidelines to which we should follow; basic things like don't hurt or kill people, don't steal from people, etc. These "morals" are simply a natural effect of humans living in big groups; villages, tribes, cities, and whole nations. These rules serve the community, help make it run efficiently, and in the long run, is better for everyone.

Nietzsche had an interesting theory on this one. He believed that there was no such thing as a selfless act. He believed that even helping others had the selfish benefit of making you feel better about yourself. People evolved this community-first mentality out of necessity. It's likely that humans wouldn't have reached this point in civilization had it not been for morality. Not to mention the fact that if you get a reputation for being a helping hand in the community, people are likely to help you in return. You scratch my back, I scratch yours.

You see this same behavior among primates. One individual will pick out dirt and knots and flees from the other one's back, and then take turns. I noticed this went I went to the Zoo to see the spider monkeys.

Just remember, "good" has no objective standard that is unwavering. What was "good" at one time in history may not be considered good today. You notice that when mankind went through huge technological changes in shirt periods of time, morality shifted as well. Think about old fashioned American family values compared to the more "modern" families of today. Majority-accepted morality can change drastically in just a few generations. Lifestyles change, technology changes, culture changes, and so does morality.

Even most Christian churches have undergone changes in accepted morality. The old testament god was really scary, you didn't fuck with him, you didn't cross him, you kept your nose clean. The new testament god in comparison reminds me of the "Buddy Christ" from the movie "Dogma". Now, it's okay if you sin, just ask for forgiveness and have a repentant heart, and the friendly Jesus will forgive you.

Morality is a subjective reality that adapts to the time and place in which it exists.