Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

You know that I am loyal to her and have tried the damndest of whatever abilities I have at the time to TRY and make her as effective as I can. I could've dropped this bitch a long time ago; but it completely goes against my principles. Because I know that the minute I decide to pick a better character, it means that in future SC games or any other fighting game I decide to pick up, I will never be able to pick my favorite character. I want to use them whether they are are good or not. Picking a character based only on tier status and options is a lure that I, personally, do not want to get caught up in.

That sounds almost like a true FG warrior statemant. lol

But yeah, I respect always a mentality like this.

But that aside, SCV Mina should be "funnier/better" than her SCIV incarnation. I do hope so.

 

[Chickenwing]

Double half-circles can't be done quickly, but would be a sensible enough motion that people could learn it easily.

Play SSF4: AE, you'll then retract that statement. :)

 

[Alstein]

Often I would agree with the philosophy, but the motions do indeed need to force a delay. Double circles can still be done quicker and would open the move to spamming still. The move is too powerful if it wad accessible all the time, but the needed prep limits how quickly you can do it and what situations.

While the motion is very hard to learn, once you get it down you're good. I struggled with it immensely and can now do it consistently on pad and stick without any telegraph or set up, I also wouldn't consider myself to have high dexterity. There's a lot of ways to learn this move slowly and precisely till you can get to a point you can do it instantly.

Once you get it down, I'm sure you can spam it just as easily as a double half-circle. It would be easier for people to learn the double half-circle, yet I wouldn't say the motion is less "long".

You are pretty much explaining the argument why the move notation needs to be changed with those comments.

"Double circles can still be done quicker and would open the move to spamming still." and "can now do it consistently on pad and stick without any telegraph or set up" to me are contradictory statements. If you can do it consistently without any telegraph or setup, you can effectively spam it yourself. It may have taken you plenty of work, and I'm sure you would be a little frustrated if that work got marginalized (and given how Ivy changes as much as Athena's outfit in KOF, Ivy players have a right to complain) , but this would make more people able to do the move period, which would encourage more Ivys, without overpowering Ivy. If for some reason it does overpower, you can balance Ivy plenty of other ways. Bad design is bad design, no matter how iconic.

This is not a criticism of you, Ivy, or your gameplay, just the logic behind your defense of the motion.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

I once learned that only a manipulator can be influenced by another manipulator. Perhaps in your case, your strategy doesn't involve you having to condition the opponent to act a certain way. Perhaps instead you let them condition themselves by assuming whatever they want about you. Either way, as long as their understanding of your intentions are false, then you can get inside that person's head for matches to come.

About your idea on fear, I believe you are referring to the loss of control experienced in a match. As it is, people do all kinds of stuff when put under pressure. But my message is that when you can outsmart someone for having the wrong idea about your intent altogether, then now it's about whether or not they actually know your mind. Therefore, fear is unrelated.

@Vincent - Oh I know all about the elitist thing. There was no offense taken.

You're pretty much right, especially on the pressure thing. But it seems that whenever people are put under pressure they fall back on something they believe to be safest. (Some get panicky and start throwing out quicker moves, some step/backstep more, evasive moves, GI, some turtle up harder.) To me, outsmarting them would be to how to stop what they like to do in such situations. Basically adaptation. Maybe instead of just fear, I should say respect. It's not just about being scared of an option, just that you know it's there and look for it.

Some say "I don't wanna be thrown" so they attack like a wild man or try to evade with something. Some don't wanna have to keep blocking so they will move or throw out GIs. They are fearing/respecting one part of the pressure more than others, and once you realize that, you can adapt and let them play into your hands. So I guess what you see as a mindgame, I just look at as adaptation.

Also as a Talim main, especially, I had to learn the art of "fear-advantage", which are basically pseudo frame traps. Working strings/delays/cancels to cause unsafe options to go unpunished. This is her pressure game. I can make -5 look like +3 or -23 look like neutral, because my opponents will fear/respect that I could finish the string. Or that I might cancel or delay. This is the fear I'm talking about. It never fails to cause hesitation and forces strong "mindgames" that wouldn't really work if the person just ignored the potential danger they could be in. Theoretically, someone can punish nearly every blocked Talim move. But they likely won't if they have any real awareness of this.

Mind games are especially strong when you have advantage, if I hit you with a move that is lets say +1, and aim to further my offense. You instead choose to attack, this throws me off because I didn't expect you to ignore the frames. However, I can put you in a similar situation, block and see if you will attack again. This opens up the gates of hell for you.

@KingAce - You're absolutely right. This is what I would do as well if faced with the situation. But I would say that's more about adaptation than a mind game. You were thrown off by your opponent's lack of fear/respect of your frames in that case, so next time you took that into consideration, and adapted by frame trapping them.

Mitsu 2KB/3B was just a default mixup. You can apply the concept to different things. How often a person steps vs not stepping, how often they block low, how often they finish the round with a particular setup, etc. Again, as a Talim main, I can make people (those who are aware and intelligent players) believe she is at +frames when she isn't by using such fear to my advantage.

@BlackStar - Thanks. didn't see your post at first, but yeah maybe this clears up my point to you as well.

 

[IvyFanboy]

Once you get it down, I'm sure you can spam it just as easily as a double half-circle. It would be easier for people to learn the double half-circle, yet I wouldn't say the motion is less "long".

You are pretty much explaining the argument why the move notation needs to be changed with those comments.

"Double circles can still be done quicker and would open the move to spamming still." and "can now do it consistently on pad and stick without any telegraph or set up" to me are contradictory statements. If you can do it consistently without any telegraph or setup, you can effectively spam it yourself. It may have taken you plenty of work, and I'm sure you would be a little frustrated if that work got marginalized (and given how Ivy changes as much as Athena's outfit in KOF, Ivy players have a right to complain) , but this would make more people able to do the move period, which would encourage more Ivys, without overpowering Ivy. If for some reason it does overpower, you can balance Ivy plenty of other ways. Bad design is bad design, no matter how iconic.

This is not a criticism of you, Ivy, or your gameplay, just the logic behind your defense of the motion.

Well, maybe. Still as much as I'm normally on your side about these things, Ivy's command grab notations are kind of iconic to the character. As well in theory one could execute perfectly and just run around with the best throw in the game wildly, but even top level players must mentally anticipate the use due to the notation, where Astaroth's command grabs are second nature since its one movement. While I agree with your logic, in my experience, after finally learning it I don't feel the skill cap to execute is as hard as it seemed. Once that motion is in muscle memory you're solid. However...I would appreciate a motion that doesn't cause mt to telegraph audibly on my arcade stick.

So tough call. I appreciate the novelty of the difficulty, but it does turn some players off from the character. Only thing is if you did an easier notation there would never be a need for A+G (See: Astaroth and non-command grabs)