Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

[BLACKSTAR]

I sincerely hope that they give Xiangha's moveset back. She's a good, well, decent character, of course, and I like the nerfs they gave her for 4, but all of the other moves they took out -- there was absolutely no reason for that, and I hope to see them return. Using (I think) 6B+K->G to skip across the ring, and her other feints was too fun. Also, they need to fix her stabbing motions, 4B6B and WR A+B,B, because a) the tracking is so messed up that they miss opponents, even ones who are standing still, and b) the frames are so bad, that even on hit or counter hit on the first hit, you can be hit out of the stab motion (especially for 4b6b)

ZeroEffect: sorry to jump in, but I thought I would say that fear is not the CAUSE but the EFFECT -- the resulting effect of a stimulus. Mind games certainly are real, but I don't think they always play off fear; much of it is following an opponent's pattern or training an opponent to follow a limited subset of his movelist by conditioning. BTW, i love to watch your Talim

 

[KingAce]

The last part of your post is my point entirely. I'm not saying legit mixups don't exist, of course they do. But training your opponents to favor a particular offensive/defensive option based on previous actions you took only works through fear of something, even if only slight. Mashers aren't gonna win tournaments, obviously. But while the most intelligent/informed players are busy trying to analyze the best options, they can be prone to hesitation where these "mindgames" tend to really shine.

Take a simple mixup like Mitsu 2KB and 3B, for example. If the mitsu player wants to use 2KB to train their opponent to block low, but the opponent doesn't care about letting it hit, there is no mind game that will make them vulnerable to the 3B option. Sure, this means theoretically you could 2KB them to death, but my point is that you can't force any sort of guessing game on them. You can't mentally train them to act a certain way, which, if I'm not mistaken is the whole point of a mind game.

And Vince, of course you're better than me... you knew better than to play Talim.

I will chime in here since I find this discussion interesting.
If you can't train your opponent, then you simply thrash him. This is why Mind games mostly exist at the highest of levels. If I gi your shit, what are you going to do? Attack me?

Mind games are especially strong when you have advantage, if I hit you with a move that is lets say +1, and aim to further my offense. You instead choose to attack, this throws me off because I didn't expect you to ignore the frames. However, I can put you in a similar situation, block and see if you will attack again. This opens up the gates of hell for you.

Once I learn that you're infact an idiot that will attack at disadvantage, then I have free damage next time, because I will beat out your options, either with a faster move, stepping or Guard Impacting.

Mitsu's 2KB is a bad example, because you can step to its weak side, and is hella punishable. You can use this tactic against Amy players. I have seen people try to just block the mids and ignore the low; eventually they block low. Maybe every time hilde runs at you you never duck, but when she's pushing you towards the edge, you make a decision.

 

[DmanXIIX]

There's always going to be under/overpowered chars. You can't balance a game perfectly. I just want the tiers to be very slight, like in SSF4, KOF98UM (yeah I know, Krauser, but everyone else is balanced, and Krauser's beatable) or VF.
(other games, I believe Tekken's is 5f, HDR/SF4 is 15f)

You won't always get over and underpowered characters it just depends how much yo put into it. If Siegried as he is was bottom tier in SC4 I wouldn't consider him over powered. If Kilik was top tier but slightly toned down like he was in BD I think that would be reasonable balance and not unrealistic either. Like I said before though in my ideal world the distance from top to bottom would be even smaller such as Mitsu to Kilik/Amy.

It's really not impossible it really is just about adjusting characters correctly. Like with SSF4 to SSF4AE they pretty much left Viper alone because she was good but nothing was quite broke about her. I see this as a smart way of balancing "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but sometimes they look at the character and say this character was one of the better characters so we need to bring them down. They end up nerfing the character way beyond necessary. Another example is in SCBD, Kilik got a few damage nerfs and the auto GI window of Asura was shortened(that's about all the changes). So in BD he remained a good character without nerfing the life out of him. With Hilde she ended up seemingly stronger than she was in SC4. They were on the right track when they took away some of her tracking although IMO since her B moves were steppable to one side they didn't need to alter that too much. Then they took away the RO potential which was good. There mistake was upping the damage way too much. Her damage output was fine in SC4. With her combos if the damage potential was still the same but just eliminating the RO that would have been fine. She'd remain a strong character without being overpowered.

Sometimes when balancing characters they are brought too far up or down the spectrum which may result in a more balanced game but still leaves a wide gap from top to bottom. The characters on top should be slightly altered like what they did with Kilik and then the bottom characters with slightly more significant changes. I honestly think if they brought in knowledgeable players and allowed them time they could adjust the game correctly. IMO it's really not a matter of what's possible simply a matter of how much they are willing to commit to balance.

 

[Sora]

^ IMO this is why she is SO fun to play. Each time you have to learn her from the beginning plus she is difficult to learn = fun.

Quite honestly, I do love a challenge as much as the next guy. I really do.

It's more like I don't want 100% of my work to go down the drain while every other character only has to put in 50% more work to get back to the same level of mastery.

Could be only me I guess. o.o;

 

[IvyFanboy]

That's a sign the move is too powerful, even if that must sound like heresy so some folks here. If you have to balance a move with a motion Geese Howard and Duck King would find overcomplicated, then you got a design issue.

Another option would be making it a double half-circle, or a 360. Double half-circles can't be done quickly, but would be a sensible enough motion that people could learn it easily.

Often I would agree with the philosophy, but the motions do indeed need to force a delay. Double circles can still be done quicker and would open the move to spamming still. The move is too powerful if it wad accessible all the time, but the needed prep limits how quickly you can do it and what situations.

While the motion is very hard to learn, once you get it down you're good. I struggled with it immensely and can now do it consistently on pad and stick without any telegraph or set up, I also wouldn't consider myself to have high dexterity. There's a lot of ways to learn this move slowly and precisely till you can get to a point you can do it instantly.