Looking And Waiting For Something Special?

[MONEYMUFFINS]

It is possible to consistently win with those characters if the person has good enough adaptation and mind game skills, among other skills, to overcome the odds.

If social science means tier lists are based on real life testing with humans and not robots, then this statement is wrong. That's the whole point of tier lists, not to be just theory. Luckily for you, however, social science can be seen as a pseudoscience and nothing of absolute substance. But because it's our most reliable way of testing the truth, disagreements go nowhere. Therefore, saying it's possible to win with the lowest tier character becomes counterproductive for us as a whole, especially since it has never happened throughout SC4's lifespan of 2+ years.

 

[Alstein]

Happy new year to you too and everyone else. :p



Yeah, like you said, SCIV inputs are fine for itself. It shouldn´t be any more complicated or easier ´cause hell, SC is not VF or whatever. I just think that some SCV characters shouldn´t be that just frame heavy again and then i am fine.

VF moves are really no more complicated then SC moves. In fact, in many cases, they're less complicated.
The application of said moves correctly can be a lot more complex/difficult though. VF and SC are both proof that complex controls are not needed to have depth. That doesn't mean applying moves in VF can't be difficult, but it's often timing based, and more importantly knowledge base. That said, VF does have a few overcomplex moves, just like SC.

As for having characters require execution, all characters do require it already. It's not like you're just hitting buttons. What people are complaining about (At least me) are the characters that require execution that is harder then it should be, for no logical reason. My belief is that a mediocre player should be able to perform a character's entire movelist with an hour's practice at most, with the exception of JF's. Once you know the moves, then you can learn the game. What's the point of making people who are learning struggle with the game controls just because they like the wrong character? Any other genre this would be rightfully ridiculed as poor design. Make them struggle with learning how to use what they learned instead.

JF's are by nature 1 frame moves, just like SF links. I'm not arguing for the removal of JF's, just the removal of JF's that are poorly designed.

That said, I respect OOF's side of the argument, but those challenges will still exist in a more balanced game also, you don't have to intentionally gimp characters, nor should it be accepted as good design. Honestly, part of me wonders if you'd be offended if Talim became a top tier character.

 

[Normal_Alien]

VF moves are really no more complicated then SC moves. In fact, in many cases, they're less complicated.

Generally speaking, you're righ. But there are exceptions. For example - Akira's legendary shit is truly hard to pull off.

BTW - I think that Daishi-san is doing a fairly good job with that twitter account of his. ^_^

 

[Destinizish]

JF's are by nature 1 frame moves, just like SF links. I'm not arguing for the removal of JF's, just the removal of JF's that are poorly designed.

This is a myth in SC's case. Many of it's JFs have quite a big window. They're not all 1 frame. In fact, I'm not sure any of them are 1 frame. This is why you can mash out so many of SC's JFs. Sure, not all of them are mashable, but I don't think even Setsuka has any 1 frame moves. Most of them have around a 3 frame window, IIRC.

Also, Talim used to be really really good. Oof wasn't offended then.

 

[Leinahtan]

The only things I don't like in SCIII/IV are the just impacts. Impacts should only be "stronger" depending on the window of opportunity for the impact. Some attacks are slow and are more easily impacted while fast attacks or attacks in succession (like Rock/Ast's three spin attack - the third spin can be impacted ONLY if just timed or Darth Impact) have a much smaller window. The smaller the window, the more reward you should get for your impact attempt, should it succeed.

As for Just Frame inputs, I'm really only in favor of them when they are unique moves, not extra damage rewards for current attacks.

Finally, for the mind games talk - Mind games involve making your opponent throw the wrong counter measure. Feints and Intimidation are basically the only mind games you can legitimately use, which are somewhat absent in IV. The random throws A and B variants are not mind tricks, its simple random guessing in most situations unless there's a ring out situation. A mind trick would be to feint one type of throw, cancel it before it lands but have the player prematurely input the wrong countermeasure which carries over for a second, and then execute the other one.