If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out...
- Thread starter HolyForce
- Start date
Gegliosch
[09] Warrior
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..
Wow, I actually read all this... and it wasn't even all that interesting. Best part of it:
Felix:
Kix:
Felix:
Exactly what I was thinking. Every choice I make leads to several other choices and it influences other people's choices as well. If god knows the outcome of all this right now, at this moment in time, there are only 2 logical conclusions:
1. My choice is predetermined by his omniscience.
2. God doesn't experience time and exists in the presence with his knowledge from the furtherst possible time in the future, if that makes any sense.
However, the second option is confusing. If somebody in the presence already saw what we're going to decide, do we still have a choice at this moment?
If we have, we are constantly changing God's knowledge. Sounds pretty powerful for his own creatures :D
Wow, I actually read all this... and it wasn't even all that interesting. Best part of it:
Felix:
Kix:
Felix:
Exactly what I was thinking. Every choice I make leads to several other choices and it influences other people's choices as well. If god knows the outcome of all this right now, at this moment in time, there are only 2 logical conclusions:
1. My choice is predetermined by his omniscience.
2. God doesn't experience time and exists in the presence with his knowledge from the furtherst possible time in the future, if that makes any sense.
However, the second option is confusing. If somebody in the presence already saw what we're going to decide, do we still have a choice at this moment?
If we have, we are constantly changing God's knowledge. Sounds pretty powerful for his own creatures :D
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..
I don't think we need to explain how God knows it, just if it is logically consistent that God is omniscient and that people also have free will.
As I pointed out, the conclusion that your choice is predetermined does not follow. It is pre-known, but it isn't determined as you are the one that supplies the truth conditions for what God knows will occur. This doesn't at all mean that you aren't choosing it. Is God going to know that you pick A and not A at the same time? If you will either pick A or not A you provide the truth of what you shall choose to pick, not God's knowledge.
I don't see that the second option is even necessary. I'm just going to say that I do not know at this point because it is already established that God's absolute foreknowledge does not limit your freedom, but accurately predicts what you shall do with your freedom.
As I've pointed out God follows from deductive arguments such as Kalam, Transcendental, and explains fine tuning and objective morality which we feel that right and wrong exist from our moral experience. Is that uninteresting?
I don't think we need to explain how God knows it, just if it is logically consistent that God is omniscient and that people also have free will.
As I pointed out, the conclusion that your choice is predetermined does not follow. It is pre-known, but it isn't determined as you are the one that supplies the truth conditions for what God knows will occur. This doesn't at all mean that you aren't choosing it. Is God going to know that you pick A and not A at the same time? If you will either pick A or not A you provide the truth of what you shall choose to pick, not God's knowledge.
I don't see that the second option is even necessary. I'm just going to say that I do not know at this point because it is already established that God's absolute foreknowledge does not limit your freedom, but accurately predicts what you shall do with your freedom.
Why do you think that we are changing God's knowledge?
As I've pointed out God follows from deductive arguments such as Kalam, Transcendental, and explains fine tuning and objective morality which we feel that right and wrong exist from our moral experience. Is that uninteresting?
Gegliosch
[09] Warrior
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..
If we assume that God knows the future, although I'm free to choose whatever I want at any time, I change the future he has foreseen every time I change my mind. This wouldn't be omniscience anymore because all he'd know is an infinite number of possible outcomes.
If you want to refute this, you have to argue that he knows in advance I will change my mind and freely choose option X, leading to the one and only future he had foreseen.
The problem is, he knows in advance what I will do, and as you said he can't know both at the same time. Suddenly I don't have a choice anymore, without proving God's vision wrong.
Either God's vision is based on our decisions, in which case we are constantly altering the future he has foreseen, or our decisions are based on the future he has foreseen, in which case we don't have a choice.
I don't see another possibility.
If we assume that God knows the future, although I'm free to choose whatever I want at any time, I change the future he has foreseen every time I change my mind. This wouldn't be omniscience anymore because all he'd know is an infinite number of possible outcomes.
If you want to refute this, you have to argue that he knows in advance I will change my mind and freely choose option X, leading to the one and only future he had foreseen.
The problem is, he knows in advance what I will do, and as you said he can't know both at the same time. Suddenly I don't have a choice anymore, without proving God's vision wrong.
Either God's vision is based on our decisions, in which case we are constantly altering the future he has foreseen, or our decisions are based on the future he has foreseen, in which case we don't have a choice.
I don't see another possibility.
StrayDogStrut
[09] Warrior
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..
:D
:D