Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate

[FightClubHuBBs]

DOA5 at gvn summer jam. What? What?

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Well ok first off you're right about my attitude. I am sounding off in exactly the way I wanted to avoid doing. So I'm sorry about that. I need to try to relax. RL is getting me down but it's no excuse to bring it into the forums.

...If you're okay with keeping DOA the same, more power to you. But don't go off on us because we want to see DOA5 at majors.

But I do want to see DOA at majors, I desperately want it. I have been saying for ages that I want to play DOA as competitively as possible. I absolutely loved DOA3, and got to play DOAU on Xbox Live, which was my first taste of any kind of competitive play in fighting games, which I wanted to do since I was a kid. And I am pretty old now, so it was a long wait.

The thing is, the changes being proposed seem to me like it won't be DOA at majors. In fact, the game as I see it is just bad. That's what I'm trying to say. It won't be at majors or anything.

The CB is conceptually no different to a launcher, in DOA terms. It is an attack that ends the mind game in a stun combo, allowing guaranteed damage. The key difference is that a launcher puts the opponent in the air, so the attacker now has to get in as powerful a combo as possible before the opponent lands. Different launchers will lead to better damage, so the defender will try to defend (counter) against the most powerful launcher if possible.

The key difference with a CB is that the guaranteed damage can be initiated fom the ground, with a MASSIVE frame advantage. This allows enormous combos to be done, just of the back of a wrong guess in a stun. It's going to be EXTREMELY REPETITIVE.

The argument that it can happen from a CH jab doesn't hold water. CH happen all the time in DOA. Can you imagine if a player at any kind of disadvantage was too scared to perform any kind of attack, because the stun from CH could lead to a huge CB combo? It would make it dull as hell. DOA is fast paced. So many attacks stun on CH, that's the nature of the game. And the stun is a totally different situation in DOA thatn in other fighting games. Using CH and stun properties from other fighting games to make points about DOA just doesn't make any sense.

By the way, I felt the need to point out that I did the SCV guide because you were suggesting I did not understand frame data. And I pointed out my tournament experience because the d3v guy was quoting Sirlin at me. I would prefer people think for themselves, but when I get these kinds of things thrown at me, the only way to respond is with facts because some people find it very hard to think logically and theoretically. They need facts.

My issue is not with something being guaranteed from a guard break, but that the displayed math is incorrect. At +12 I should be able to connect a 12-frame attack, but at best you can only connect a 10-frame attack (meaning you're actually at +10, not +12).

I don't understand how you could write the above if you understand the DOA system. Any pro who understands the system will understand the numbers in the training mode. Anyone who doesn't can go to FSD or other places to find out. The forced tech trap find doesn't really demonstrate that you understood the system. But your above quote does suggest that you don't understand it.

 

[Rikuto]

Age... the game you are talking about, with tons of stuns on CH? Where everything has multiple chances of being guessed out of? That's not DOA 1-3. That's DOA 4. The black sheep of the series and what took the best chance the game had of striking a competitive scene, and burying it.


It's taken a decade for the game to try to remember its roots, but what you are talking about is literally everything that went wrong with DOA 4 and made people abandon ship after DOA2U helped get the ball rolling again. Stuns on every CH and multiple chances to escape? No, that's not what DOA is about.... thats what DOA 4 is about, and what a horrifying thing that it's the only part of the game you still remember. That's not at all what DOA is all about... if it was, DOA 4 wouldn't have been a massive failure compared to the rest of the series.

I implore you to go back to some of the older games and play them for a few hours, then throw DOA 4 in and see just how bad that game actually is.

 

[d3v]

Why not? This argument is used over and over but no-one ever suggests a good reason for it. Stuns happen all the time in this game, off almost every attack. There is no reason why, having got a hit in slightly faster this time, you should be able to proceed to do a huge damage combo. It's DOA, not SC, not SF, not VF, this is the DOA system. If you don't like it play a different game. There is no reason that this mkaes the game worse than the others. It's different. Do you relaly not understand?

Because it is worse than the others. Even other DOA players have stated that the system gets really frustrating. Having to continue to guess after having played and won in the neutral game gets frustrating. The risk-reward balance is skewed towards defense which is dumb, because more often than not, in a combo situation, it's the attacking player who did more work. This is why you have top players like Rikuto actually calling for the removal of holds out of stun.

Oh my god. You really are unable to grasp what I'm saying aren't you. OF COURSE you should do the same move over and over if your opponent can't deal with it. My point was, in the context of SCIV bullrush or SF fireball, it's a good thing. But it's NOT a good thing if one move is so good and so rewarding that the best thing to do is just keep using it until it hits, and then do a big combo. This is 100% the dev's fault.

Yet the exact thing happened to MvC2 and that game is considered one of the best competitive games in history. If the system is deep enough (or allows for enough exploiting) then good options can continue to be developed.

I can't believe your telling me that I need to adapt. I have entered 8 SCV tournaments so far and won 6 of them, including the European Impact finals. What the hell. Try using your brain and not just repeating the same old tired crap over and over. And try actually understanding what I'm saying rather than just grasping at the first easy answer that pops into your head.


Yes and that's fine, because a fireball doesn't lead into a giant combo. It's part of the zongin game and leads to really interesting and fun match-ups and strategies. WHICH IS WHAT I ALREADY SAID. WHY ARE YOU MAKING MY OWN POINTS BACK AT ME?

You're missing the point of fireballs completely if you're just thinking in terms of damage. Fireballs control so much space that they can lock an opponent down and totally control a match because doing the opposite was even worse. Jump over Ryu's fireball into a full bore Shoryu in SFII did as much damage as an average combo does these days. Even nowadays, do the same thing and you're eating a Shoryu + FADC + Ultra. Fireball spam is dominant not just because of damage, but because of space control. It takes control away from your opponent.

Off course, if you want to talk about damage, there's Cable's AHVB in MvC2 where he could combo into it and kill a character with 5 meters.

Not everything should be a best option. SOme options should be better than others of course. Otherwise the game would be boring. I already said this. Some options should be better at certain ranges, or in certain situations. And sometimes even a character might have an option that is so good that the opponents need to devise particular strategies to deal with it. What is not good is when one option is so good that it dwarfs all other options. You've seen the YouTube DIVEKICK video right? If one option is so good that the best players use this option repeatedly because even at the highest level it's the best thing to do, then you've screwed up your game. Right? This is so obvious I can't believe I need to state it. AGAIN.

There is nothing wrong with having a "best" option. In fact, most of us tend to see having an option like that, especially if its something unintended, to be a good thing, since it implies that the engine allows for a degree of freedom for us to exploit.

What should be the case though is that every character should have really strong best options. That's where the mindgames and the strategy comes from, trying to defeat your opponents strengths and use/abuse your own.

Now if you're worried about the risk involved, historically having high risk has never stopped offense. It just means that both players play smarter. The FGC is in general, very much into gambling. High stakes simply leads to more hype.

This is incredibly stupid. Why do you play fighting games competitively? Did you wake up one day and think to yourself "I want to be a competitive fighting gamer"? Or did you play a game that you loved so much that you started to get really serious about it, to want to explore and improve and better yourself? We weer all casual gamers once. And we played some games to death because of how good they were. A hardcore community emerges from the obsessional play from people who play a game to death because they can't get enough of it. And these people aren't pros or hardcore gamers until they've gone a lot further and actually reached a high level, which happens WAY AFTER just deciding to give it a shot.

I like winning. I like the competition and fighting games are something that I enjoy winning at. If I can find an easier way to win than the next guy, then good for me.

The casual gamer is the one who picks the game up and keeps playing it because he enjoys it, because it's a good game. Some of those gamers eventually become pro gamers. And once you get tournament level, yes you need to tweak the game to make it still enjoyable. But not by simply making it like every other game out there.

Once again, you're acting like every other ignorant player hiding behind a veil of "uniqueness." Uniqueness doesn't matter if the game doesn't stand up to tournament play and guess what, for the most part DOA hasn't thanks to some glaring issues with that which makes it unique. The way DOA4 emphasized holding out of stun just made the game stupid. I mean, why attack when the best strategy is to get hit and then counter.

At the same time, look at other games that allow to to break out of a combo. For the most part, these combo breaking mechanics are subject to strict limits. They're either tied to meter or have some penalty applied to them. The only other game I can recall that had a free combo breaker was KI and, despite the nostalgia behind it, we all know that KI was never a tournament worthy game. With DOA5's implementation, the system is now closer to counter exchanges in the MvC3 series. Instead of being able to get out for free, you're limited to certain points in a combo. At the same time, there's the risk involved if you guess wrong - that is eating big damage (in UMvC, you get TAC infinited to death, in DOA5 you eat big damage, same deal).

 

[Ghengis_John]

I'd like to thank whoever deleted that pointless troll post.