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About the range yea I know about it, and still though it's not comparable to JFT (just because it's faster), I still believe it is better than omega's DNS B and maybe cervante's 2nd best move (above iGDR, below 1a:b)

imo, there's not gonna be a right answer to this question seeing as the utility of a move is defined by the MU and your opponent's habits. While I'd completely agree with this status if you were talking about the ZWEI MU for example, I'd be shocked if you said the same for the Pyrrha MU, because 214B means, in the language of a Pyrrha player, "here, have a free stab or CE depending on how you feel".

Ixhizy, it depends how you look at it. Punishiment wise DNS B is better (more range and can be used from FC and is generally safer in case you miss) but aB has other strengths. Still, when it comes to punishment, JFT > all.

Yep, in this game everything depends on the MUs. Still, there are moves that cover way too many options and are great against pretty much every character because they basically have no weaknesses (Camera zoom on Alpha again)

Even with the constraints of meter, Alpha's CE is godly. Fear of its use in the final round should make the opponent lock up a lot. And getting 50-60ish dmg or however much he gets just from landing a 2A... As if his movelist wasn't already scary enough.
I'm gonna repeat what I said before. Forget individual moves, Alpha has the most utility :P

lol alpha's CE can punish almost everything, the shit is broken... and yea it depends on the MU, for example, using DNS B against another pyrrha is not an option since she will punish you for 60+ damage. In the other hand, against siegfried and nightmare... it could be the best move ever.

Damn, 30 alerts. Either way, in the entire game? I'll agree with Ring and say aPat's 2363b or Cerv's 4B BE. It's was undoubtedly, imo, Leixia's WR B BE prepatch. Honorable mentions go to Natsu's 22A and A+B (especially prepatch).

For Ivy, no doubt her 3b (which does the same exact thing as 214b, albeit in smaller window with a bigger reward, less range, slightly less backstep step, and is completely safe except for 3 instances.)

With a move like 214b, at most, if you're not chipping your opponent to death, you get reset to 'neutral' and a little bit of damage, but, if you guess wrong, you're being put into a mixup/punishment situation most of the time, being at -14. What you have to think about when thinking about how threatening a move is is how much it makes your opponent WANT and HAVE to change their strategy or lose.

214B is something to keep in the back of your mind but it does not help to dictate the flow of a match, especially when you consider that its effectiveness is lost in certain matches and, even when you consider that a character like

Viola, who 214B can be spammable against, can bait and punish it with something like 44A BE unless you use it somewhere where it's no longer as effective as it was, then you see why it's not so amazing. This is a premise of high level SC play.

Of course, you're going off of what you experience online, where some moves become much stronger than they are and some weaker than they are. This is why you need to get out, offline, and actually play good people.

Last post, but a true to life example of this is KineticClash, a player who mostly plays online and plays Ivy. He plays her pretty much the way she played in SC4 and it's unbelievably effective online, to the point that he's beaten many good players online

I, honestly, cannot touch the guy online. Still, we have played offline and, the last time we played, the score was like 13-2. This isn't to say that he's bad at all, because he is using what he thinks to be effective and is actually pretty scary to play against if you don't figure out his game quick (I actually learned how to play Ivy from playing him). But to overstate that online changes things.

omg that's a huge TL;DR

I always thought that Ivy was worse online. Unless we're talking heavy lag that prevents from punishing her and blocking her lows, I personally always felt at disadvantage, not being able to use 22B JF and 1K (which is a lag tactic, no matter how we look at it) hurts my game.

Yes, I agree with you HolyCarp. Against Pyrrha, 24B isn't a good idea. But needless to say, not everyone has pyrrha's move. And like Ring said, it's all MU dependent. Now, at Oreo and Wolf, I think it's too simplistic to look at the frames for every move and automatically judge how safe or unsafe they are. It's effectively safe if a character can't punish it. It's also effectively safe if you space correctly.

And oreo mentioned that NM's move is safe because of the followup. However, if you just look at the negative frames, you wouldn't say that. I realize the move isn't completely safe. I'm just coming from a practical standpoint.

It's about more than just looking at the negative frames on a move. And on just-guarding, but I don't think that's necessary to discuss. But on this punishment thing, what do you guys think about certain characters not being able to punish other character's moves while others can? Do you think that creates an imbalance?

Me, I like that idea, but I think there is a problem with moves that can be used back to back against a character that can't punish them.