DEV TEST

ESPECIALLY. NOT. WHEN. PUNISHING.

so nightmare's NSS K is like 40 frames?

e_e Do you have to undergo the stance transition before using it? If so then yes. <_< From standing, it will take 40 frames for him to hit the move. Jesus. Are you seriously going to try and argue that DNS B hits at frame 11 when it's MANDATORY for you to do the 4ish frame input before using the move? Are you joking me?

DNS takes 4 frames, the B is 11 frames, so if you consider it that way, its 15 frames, but from actually finalizing a move, its 11 frames, like Ezio's 6K2, the 6K is the transition, but you decide to do the 2 after the transition. You can cancel the DNS without the B, and use it as its own move. the actual input that makes it an input is the B, which makes it 11 frames from activation to hit.

http://8wayrun.com/threads/understanding-frame-animation.7020/
might help you understand

To make it SUPER CLEAR to understand, its at the point of B where a computer knows what move you are doing, so it has 11 frames to react. AS A PUNISHMENT is where total transition could come into play, but if you wanna think your way about it and include transition frames, be my guest, if you were trying to punish it would be around 15 frames.

Please don't speak to me as if you have anything to teach me about anything; your IQ is probably the same as your shoe size. You're trying and failing to patronize me. If it takes 4 frames to do the required input and the animation of the move AFTER the 4 frames is 11, then what do we get, children? 15 frames. Get the hell over it. I'm done.

Empty and Solo are right on almost every post in this conversation. Final is wrong on EVERY post in this conversation. I will attempt to clear some stuff up lol.
1. Top 5:
aPat(Safe, i8 CE, i12 71 damage punisher, good range, amazing grabs, good lows, good high/mid mixup, fast, damage, etc.)

Mitsu(Safe, very good CE, GREAT lows, good range, crazy ass tracking, 4B, very good punishers, damage, guard damage, good throws, amazing mid/low mixup, oki, etc.)
Cervy(Good range, amazing i11 40 damage punisher, good tracking low that does insane damage on CH, great CE, 3B, iGDR, insane damage, very good grabs, very good mid/low/high mixup, etc.)

Patroklos(66B, 1K, 11_77K, grabs, RO power, great CE, best meter gain, "infinite GI", A+B, best Slide, damage, oki, etc.)
Algol(DAMAGE UP THE YIN YANG, very good CE, 1K, 11_77K, 66B, bubbles, THE BEST BACKSTEP KILLER IN THE GAME, ok grabs, chair vortex lol, more bubbles, etc.)
I'm missing quite a few things that makes those characters the top 5.

2. Aeon isn't the worst. Raph is. Aeon has 66A, 66A+B, 66B, 4B+K, and 4b+kG for catching backstep. Raph has 236B, SE B, CE, and 66B for catching backstep. Raph doesn't win in A SINGLE catagory except for sucking. Bottom 3 is(arguably):
Raph, Dampierre, and Z.W.E.I.

3. Sieg's FC game is better than NM's. End of discussion there. Well also, NM's WR A SUCKS...

4. So you are saying DNS B/DNSB:4 if buffered so there isn't the stance animation, can be either i11 or i15? lol No. Try punishing Xiba's 3B(not 3, not 3BKK, just regular 3B) with your so called "i11" DNS B/DNS B:4. Not possible cause fastest possible DNS B/DNS B:4 is i15 and Xiba's 3B is -12 on block.

5. RO's are not cheap. AT ALL. It takes a lot of work to RO a skilled player. Also, RO's are something that some characters need. Like Aeon.

6. Alpha is still the best character online. Learn to play him online and shut up.

7. Maxi's B, B, LO B is terrible. Don't use it.

8. You sir are a slut.

9. I want to fight you online. You say you are amazing yet I highly doubt that considering the fact that everything you say is stupid. Add me: XBL: Paranormal Oreo PSN: Insidious_Oreo

Oh yeah...
9. Cant spell PRO without RO...

i dont think normal pat is top 5, i think viola is in her place, but forgetting that, i think everything you said is true, and i dont know if final wants to fight you but i do, add me, PSN: seas_of_the_sun

Idk it seems like on paper he's just another good character but in the actual game, he's very good. 66B, 1K, his stupid ass meter gain, his A+B, and his CE should be enough to be called top tier lol.

Viola is still insane though. Pat and Viola are pretty close but Pat is a little better. Viola is the only character that is COMPLETELY shut down by GI and she lacks punishers and long range attacks(Not counting orb attacks of course). Ok I'll add you when I get to my PS3. I might be on that or I might just go on my xbox. It depends.

ok, i still think that viola is a little bit more nasty (although this may be becuase im afraid that they will patch pat) but you have a point

Considering like half of the top 8 of Evo was Pat, I'd say he's up there.