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Don't get me wrong, no char is an autowin, not even mitsurugi. When you lose, you lost to the player, not the character and people should always blame themselves first when they do.
So when people say stuff like mitsurugi is top tier, that doesn't take anything away from your wins.

It just flat out means, that its harder to win with some chars, than with others, due to more bad MU's and stuff.

And thats why some chars are more popular than others.

In 2D fighters, there's less options in almost every situation. Thus why tiers make sense. There's two levels of attack, strings have less branching options, and there's less defensive options to deal with moves or strings.

That is why tier lists makes perfect sense, in let's say, Street Fighter, because you can have a character who's so limited he simply can't deal with certain kinds of pressure or situations.

I can agree with that.

Now you tell me just how in the HELL that makes sense in Soul Calibur?

This game has so much more depth that people give it credit for, and there's ways out of almost everything in this game, ESPECIALLY when you can JG.

You can't tell me: "So and so character just can't deal with so and so's this:" It's the player...player skill completely trumps matchup in this game, and I will stand by that.

Every char can deal with every situation, thats not the point fahros. Its a matter of risk/reward.

Actually Fahros, you're pretty wrong ATM. I can quote several people who thought Tira was pretty up there pre EVO. All tourney players who've been around the scene. It doesn't look bad because you're playing Mitsu, and I agree on the point of things being relatively balanced. It's just completely ignorant to say that tiers have no impact on the game - especially if you haven't competed.

Hey Destinizish:

"Player skill completely trumps matchup in this game, and I will stand by that."

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I don't care what magical people or conversations you wish to create for the sake of your argument. From my experiences, from the majors I've watched, the player interviews I've sat through, nobody has talked about Tira.

I play the game on a daily basis, and talk with more people in this community than possibly anybody else, since I do most of that online...and you're going to tell me my word is especially ignorant, since I haven't competed?

Have you?

What do you think gives your word more weight? Your top-level buddies? You don't think I have the same? Lol...

I'm about done with that.

We can disagree and retort with "Actually...you're wrong's", all day Destinizish.

This debate is as pointless as the tiers themselves.

Yes, I have competed. I've been in tournaments with several people that attend majors. I'm actually well known by most of them. Xephukai is one of my better friends. Woahhzz has played and can vouch for me as well. Both of these players also aren't ignorant enough to say tiers don't exist at any level. The problem is, you're looking at tiers the wrong way.

Nobody uses these things as scapegoats besides bad players. Nobody said tiers are the final word on anything. Player skill makes a big difference, but it does so much in the same way it does so in any other game. Skill can trump even the worst of matchups in anything if it's played well enough. Tiers aren't meant to be a list of, "These guys can compete, these guys can't."

People who look at it this way are wrong.

And yes, if you haven't competed - you can't talk of how balance effects tournament play. You really can't. Anyone is viable. That, however, doesn't mean tiers don't exist. I can play all of the top names online (which I do) as much as I want. But I wouldn't make any points about tourney play unless I'd BEEN THERE.

You're looking at my comments as an attack on your reputation. To be quite honest, you could be any of the top 8 at EVO, and if you were saying the same stuff, I'd still tell you you were flat out wrong. (And I'd get to say it to your face, too!)

Oh and by the way - the people who said Tira and Pat were strong aren't just magical. I know Decapon thinks Tira's S tier. I know a couple others who thought she was A.

Get off your high horse...

I've watched your videos, lol. If you're honestly going to act like you have an authority on this, because you've simply ATTENDED tournaments, I'm going to have to laugh and end this.

You've typed a short essay and still haven't given me one concrete example of why or how tiers actually matter in this game. It's all fluff, it's all bullshit.

All I'm hearing is tiers matter because you say so, and people should look at things from your point of view. I've presented my case, my argument, and my train of logic, and you haven't refuted any of it in any way besides barking how "wrong" I am simply because you say so, or because of who you know.

Conversation = Over, unless you have a concrete example of a tier imbalance, and how it affects a matchup.

An example of a bad match up, in another game, such as Street Fighter, would be the old Zangief vs Seth matchup...

Incredibly hard for Gief, because he can't get in. The characters are so different, and Seth had every tool in the world to keep him out. Thus the horrid matchup for Gief.

Tiers are no where NEAR as prevalent in a SC because there's ways around everything, and so many alternatives.

You're kidding, right? I'm about as humble as players come. I've attended several tourneys, but that doesn't give me a voice of authority.

But let's be completely fair, here. Your argument is absolutely ignoring any knowledge of how competitive SC works, in favor of how you THINK it works. Characters have bad matchups.

This is EXACTLY why people pick different characters depending on the matchup. Xeph didn't make it to top 8 off Asty alone. They even put him in top 8 as a Pat player. But he mains Astaroth. Why did he make these switches? Largely because, surprise, surprise, bad matchups come up. How can you say there's none in SC? Hell, look at Viola.

Everyone has the tools to deal with her stuff, but some people have not only the tools to deal with it, but to deal with it and make her eat OVER 100 DAMAGE because she attempted a pressure string. How is that not a worse matchup than a character that can't do this? NM's pushback and the range he likes to fight at can keep Viola zoned very effectively and easily. How is this not a bad matchup?