Soulcalibur V coming as a Digital Download!

[TiZ]

Actually, no it's not. It's a perfectly fine argument, and to it's effect, very true. What would be the point of releasing a balance patch if balance isn't necessary for tournaments because no one is going?

I hear this argument all the time, and it's very flawed in that it implies that a fighting game is made only for the tournament players, and this is simply not true. Tournament players aren't the only ones playing this game. In fact, they're not even the majority. They're a small minority. The casual players who struggle with the subtleties and nuances of high-level play want to enjoy this game too. And balance is something that impacts that. Lower-level players aren't easily able to figure out counters to tactics that appear powerful. I don't even mean the guy who just picked up the game and mashes attack buttons once you start hitting him to try and get out. I mean a green player who has grasped the basics of what they're supposed to do. Block to prevent damage and find openings. Throw/low when they block. Step verticals. Crouch highs, throws, and lows. Hit them when they miss. Try to hit them when they're grounded. These are the most basic fundamentals of how to play Soul Calibur.

I personally believe that a very powerful tactic that requires knowledge of a very specific counter in order to defeat it is not balanced. The problem is that a low to mid level player usually can't figure this out intuitively. They can't figure it out during the match or even if they watch it over and over during a replay, which means that tactic is free to be exploited on them endlessly. If you don't know what to do about it, that's just tough shit. Tekken is literally *all about* this kind of thing, and that is why I don't play it. It punishes people who don't have the time or commitment to be a student of the game, and unjustly rewards someone who simply knows how to abuse something exploitable. That's terrible game design.

The reason I bring that up is because that is where balance for the low level must be made. The guy who is getting nuked by the exploitables isn't having fun since the other guy's mashing out his powerful moves and getting all this reward without him being able to do anything about it. Maybe he doesn't know what his own exploitable tactics are to spit back, or maybe his character just doesn't have any (more on the problem with this later). But at this point, he is not having any fun. If he has to deal with this day in and day out, he's very likely to just not play. We just lost a player who, with enough sustained interest, potentially could have given life to the tournament scene, because we didn't care about balance at the low level.

This could have been prevented in many ways! For one, the counter to that exploitable could have been made more obvious... or it could have just been something that would have been easier to figure out. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't see any harm in making a game less studious. If the difference between a tactic being broken and manageable is simply knowing or not knowing, then why not make it easier to know for the sake of the playerbase's enjoyment? I really don't think there is a good reason not to.

Alternatively... that player could have had exploitable tactics at his own disposal to fire back... but that's a terrible alternative. This dilutes and cheapens the metagame to firing broken shit back and forth at each other. It takes away the players' need to think and makes it just about whose shit is more broken and who can deal with the other person's shit better. The other layers of the metagame become less accessible (or even completely inaccessible!) because you've got your hands full dealing with stupid shit. At this point, we're basically just playing Marvel. I hate that fighting games these days err toward making the characters as stupid good as possible. Aren't fighting games supposed to be about prediction, reaction, adaptation, and outwitting?

Holy shit did I go off the rails. Anyways. What was the point I was getting to? Basically, balance matters for casual players just as much as tournament players, because casual players are potential tournament players. If they're not having any fun at the low level, then there's no way they'll support us at the high level. An imbalanced game could be so unfun that they could stop playing entirely, let alone venture out to tournaments.

 

[LP]

i don't think this is true in SC5's case at all. after all. two high level players switched their characters that they stuck with for many years because of these "balance patches". Keev and Kayane. Keev went to Ivy and Kayane went to Viola. but over all the other SC games they've stuck to their mains and have done just fine. but SC5 rolls along with their patches and suddenly those two, who are known for their mains, switch mains. also when the patches came out the game wasn't even out that long. Project Soul probably just listened to complaints of a representative and changed the game based on a few opinions rather than test things out or observe the gameplay for long. some of the balance stuff just didn't make any sense. even for high level players the choices were still dumb.

and to LP the good SC players show up to more than just major tournaments. don't dismiss other tournaments just because they aren't majors. Wednesday Night Fight had several high level players attend their SC tournaments regularly.

I have no clue what relevance the second paragraph has at all.

But, even neglecting on the fact that many a player (including me who switched from aPat to Viola...and pretty much play characters in tournament on a whim...and still make at least third place) switched characters before and after the balance patch, and even neglecting the fact that Keev's Ivy got blown up the one time it visited the States, his aPat got blown up in France, he went back to Nightmare, and just recently played Ivy at the last French shindig, and that Kayane got eliminated before top 8 at the last Sc5 major she attended, with your logic in mind, I pose to you two questions (which I may already know the answer to but very much doubt you do):

1) What does Keev think about Viola, a character many believe to be 'broken' in SC5?

2) Why has, time and time again, Kayane has gotten done up with Viola and then switched to Leixia?

I think it's easy to assume a great deal of things when you're not actually attending these events and talking to these players. Hell, I picked up Viola as soon as SC5 came out (and still have a video or two downloaded to prove it) but I remember Bibulus talking about how I picked Viola up because she was bananas or some shit.

Long story short: a lot of people who think they're in the know aren't even in the know and a lot of top players don't even have a clue when it comes to balance or tier lists. Go ahead to any of the podcasts for reference.

But, to put it the way I put it to some other chums, in SC in general, most players are not able to think above the level that they're at in the game and thus may appreciate or not appreciate things based on simply what they know and understand...not what there is to be known and understood.

I know how a great deal of the actual top players (not some random online Joe who blows out bootyholes) feel about about the cast, both foreign and domestic (because I actually talk to people and don't assume things) and I can body most of you people no matter what character I pick (offline). And, before you think, "Well, you're LP and you're pretty gud." That's exactly the point. A lot of you try to think above the level that you're at and get disappointed when you get the results you don't feel you deserve (regardless of what character you pick, I assure you).

Sad that most of you haters can't get that into your head but it's wuteva. I play games for fun and still beat you tryhards no matta wut so es all gud.

 

[LP]

I hear this argument all the time, and it's very flawed in that it implies that a fighting game is made only for the tournament players, and this is simply not true.

It is true and that's it. I doubt if most casual friends even know what makes or breaks balance, let alone are able to perform it. Why? Because most people who play 'competitively' are fuckin' inept. And that's not a potshot or a bad thing even. It's when you get a thousand scrubs who think they know what they're talking about being vocal about things they don't understand (no matter what game you play).

Ask the casual players about what characters are cheap and why. They probably don't know and don't care too much. It's the quasi-core crowd, which the large majority of your stream monsters, non-top players, etc, etc belong to that feel privileged. The only reason half of you know what's 'broken' or 'imbalanced' is because someone else has told you. The evidence is in your inability to replicate it. It's an excuse for the quasi-core crowd, balance, no matter what game they play.

You know, I read something over at FSD about something along the lines of scrubs not even understanding the game and it being the top players' fault. I'll find it later (I should be writing a paper) but lots of you people, the quasi-core people, need to stop blaming these thousand things for you sucking and either get better, stop whining, or stop playing. That's as simple as it is.

 

[LP]

Signed, LP "I Blow Niccaz up wit Edgemaster, Long Dick" Johnson

 

[0VincentRayne0]

i gotta snip this. snip it good

i guess that second paragraph was aimed at the wrong person. but I don't remember seeing Kayane or Keev go back to their comfortable characters. heck, i loved watching Keev fight as NM. my old roommate, who doesn't even play SC or have much interest in it, likes watching Keev fight. I just found it a shame when he stopped playing NM for a good while.

i was disappointed with the fact that Kayane dropped Leixia because Leixia was my main as well. i wanted to pick up Leixia before the game even came out.

i don't know Keev personally and only met Kayane for casuals once. i don't know their actual reason for dropping characters. i know the patches had some persuasion on Kayane's part but i'm not sure about Keev. i'm not a high placing tourney player but i don't think that's a reason to slap someone's opinion about the game aside. i hear all this stuff about, "patches are for high level players. etc, etc." wasn't this game originally made to appeal to the casual audience. i mean, there are supers taken right from street fighter. there was the elimination of an entire button combination A+K. and a LOT of work went into the CaS stuff. so, to me it's hard to take this game super seriously for tournament play because it wasn't really built with high level players in mind.

granted this is my opinion though.