Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate

[Mr.Wah]

... I thought the i was short for "impact". as in, "this is the first active frame for the move".
Does it mean something else in DOA land?

I suppose I shouldn't get bothered too much, I might have to jump through some hoops to understand the frame data, but at least it is there in the first place.

Then I misunderstood. DOA players started using the i# terminology after they came back from Soul Calibur IV but they were using it for the initial frames as the community would just say 9 frames for a 9 frame attack which had its first hit frame on the 10th frame.

Either way, the game plays like any other. The hit frame has to hit the hurt box before the number of frame advantage reaches 0.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

They shouldn't have the option to get out of being stunned/comboed in the first place.

Why not? This argument is used over and over but no-one ever suggests a good reason for it. Stuns happen all the time in this game, off almost every attack. There is no reason why, having got a hit in slightly faster this time, you should be able to proceed to do a huge damage combo. It's DOA, not SC, not SF, not VF, this is the DOA system. If you don't like it play a different game. There is no reason that this mkaes the game worse than the others. It's different. Do you relaly not understand?

From a competitive point of view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the same attacks over and over. If you are unable to adapt to someone using the same moves or options everyting, then that is your problem, not theirs, not the developers. To quote Sirlin "Play to win, not to do "difficult" moves".

Oh my god. You really are unable to grasp what I'm saying aren't you. OF COURSE you should do the same move over and over if your opponent can't deal with it. My point was, in the context of SCIV bullrush or SF fireball, it's a good thing. But it's NOT a good thing if one move is so good and so rewarding that the best thing to do is just keep using it until it hits, and then do a big combo. This is 100% the dev's fault.

I can't believe your telling me that I need to adapt. I have entered 8 SCV tournaments so far and won 6 of them, including the European Impact finals. What the hell. Try using your brain and not just repeating the same old tired crap over and over. And try actually understanding what I'm saying rather than just grasping at the first easy answer that pops into your head.

In Super Turbo, this match-up is interesting precisely because Ryu shuts down almost half the cast, once he gets that fireball trap running, it's pretty hard to get out. It's interesting because it forces players to learn to use whatever tools their character has to get in and beat Ryu. For example, Blanka almost has zero chance of getting in, but in the hands of a good Blanka player, once he does get in, they can still wreck shop.

Yes and that's fine, because a fireball doesn't lead into a giant combo. It's part of the zongin game and leads to really interesting and fun match-ups and strategies. WHICH IS WHAT I ALREADY SAID. WHY ARE YOU MAKING MY OWN POINTS BACK AT ME?

This happens in every fighting game that's played competitively. People will always use the best options available to them. Taking those out or trying to make everything a "best option" simply leads to a game where randomness is rewarded, which is terrible from a competitive point of view. The only valid reasons to drop a max damage combo are to either reset to get past damage/hitstun scaling or to set your opponent up in a position where they'll end up eating even more damage (vortex).

Not everything should be a best option. SOme options should be better than others of course. Otherwise the game would be boring. I already said this. Some options should be better at certain ranges, or in certain situations. And sometimes even a character might have an option that is so good that the opponents need to devise particular strategies to deal with it. What is not good is when one option is so good that it dwarfs all other options. You've seen the YouTube DIVEKICK video right? If one option is so good that the best players use this option repeatedly because even at the highest level it's the best thing to do, then you've screwed up your game. Right? This is so obvious I can't believe I need to state it. AGAIN.

The casual gamer ... will simply buy the game because of "lolbewbs."

This is incredibly stupid. Why do you play fighting games competitively? Did you wake up one day and think to yourself "I want to be a competitive fighting gamer"? Or did you play a game that you loved so much that you started to get really serious about it, to want to explore and improve and better yourself? We weer all casual gamers once. And we played some games to death because of how good they were. A hardcore community emerges from the obsessional play from people who play a game to death because they can't get enough of it. And these people aren't pros or hardcore gamers until they've gone a lot further and actually reached a high level, which happens WAY AFTER just deciding to give it a shot.

The casual gamer is the one who picks the game up and keeps playing it because he enjoys it, because it's a good game. Some of those gamers eventually become pro gamers. And once you get tournament level, yes you need to tweak the game to make it still enjoyable. But not by simply making it like every other game out there.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Then I misunderstood. DOA players started using the i# terminology after they came back from Soul Calibur IV but they were using it for the initial frames as the community would just say 9 frames for a 9 frame attack which had its first hit frame on the 10th frame.

Either way, the game plays like any other. The hit frame has to hit the hurt box before the number of frame advantage reaches 0.

In SC terminology, an i11 attack hits on the 11th frame, i.e. it has 10 startup frames, and the 11th frame is the first active frame. But perhaps in DOA it is not like this. I don't know what the standard conventions are for DOA.

However, this does lead me to a rather shocking conclusion... do I take it that neither you or Dr. Dogg are aware that in DOA you can block after recovery one frame before you can do anything else? Including attack, move or crouch? I have to be honest, if you guys are suggesting changes for a game and you don't even understand the basic game system, that's kind of inexcusable. It's ridiculous.

 

[Mr.Wah]

I'm aware that blocking can be done on the first frame you are no longer at frame disadvantage.

 

[DrDogg]

The i11 should connect, the i12 should not. The only reason the i11 would miss is if the hit frame to reach the opponent's hurt box is on the 13th frame of the animation, meaning the first hit frame didn't reach the opponent's hurtbox.

An i11 attack is 11 frames of initial startup frames, you know this. It's not until the 12th frame of animation is a hit box registered. That's why the i12 would not be guaranteed and would be blockable as the 13th frame of animation is the first hit frame so that's appearing at the moment the opponent is able to guard for their first frame.

I'm aware of this, which is why I'm calling for the change. I also know that it's a system mechanic that caused the second frame of delay so that only i10 was guaranteed. I think it should be conveyed in the displayed frame data so it doesn't confuse players from other fighters. Frame data is frame data, you shouldn't have to read it differently just because it's DOA.

It'll be explained in the strategy guide, and I already conveyed that this is a minor issue. I just think it may confuse anyone who isn't on FSD or opts to pass on the strategy guide.

However, this does lead me to a rather shocking conclusion... do I take it that neither you or Dr. Dogg are aware that in DOA you can block after recovery one frame before you can do anything else? Including attack, move or crouch? I have to be honest, if you guys are suggesting changes for a game and you don't even understand the basic game system, that's kind of inexcusable. It's ridiculous.

For clarification, I helped figure out the forced tech trap in DOA4, which only works because you can block before you can do anything else.

At first, it seemed like you were curious and asking questions to better understand DOA5 and DOA in general. Now you're copping an attitude and acting like it's impossible for anyone to have a correct opinion aside from yourself.

Four people have chimed in to say that you're incorrect or they disagree with you. Not a single one of them was rude or demeaning, but you're starting to show signs of both.

You honestly don't sound like a high-level player at all with the way that you don't want anything guaranteed from stuns. I'm sure you are one, given the fact that you felt the need to point out your tournament record and the fact that you assisted with the SC5 guide... but pointing out that stuff doesn't really change your knowledge of the conversation. I've worked on significantly more guides than you have. I've probably attended significantly more tournaments than you have as well (not bragging, just assuming I've been playing competitively longer than you since I'm kind of old in a competitive gaming sense).

None of that means anything. We both understand high-level mechanics and frame data. You simply want something different out of DOA5 than I do. It's okay to disagree on what would make DOA5 a competitive fighter. However, keep in mind the fact that DOA has never had a strong competitive scene and it's played the way you want it to play for over a decade.

My goal, and the goal of many people on FSD, is to see DOA5 in a lot of major tournaments and have a scene equal to at least what MK9 is sporting. Every DOA from DOA2 to DOA4.1 (with the possible exception of DOA3.1) has already proven that something needs to change to appeal to a larger group of competitive players. You seem to want things to stay the same, which will result in a lackluster tournament scene. MK changed and is now far more accepted by competitive players. SC5 introduced big changes that were controversial at first, but have given it a better tournament life than SC3 and SC4.

If you're okay with keeping DOA the same, more power to you. But don't go off on us because we want to see DOA5 at majors.