SoulCast Episode #3: Hates

[xiang]

I personally think the BD distance is too small to be considered good enough to warrant the negative frames you get for trying it, but that's just me. Like Rikuto brushed on, you already have a disadvantage with a guard meter, so why not bring that more in to play? IMO, allowing players the ability to at least move forward and backward safely is more than viable because, even if they block and don't cause a whiff, they're still conceding the guard meter from blocking. But, again, that's just me.

 

[Xeph]

It's not pure theory. After a month and a half of using JG, I'm starting to be able to place my JG frames wherever I want to, while being safe (standing still and holding guard). It's very possible to do stuff like spacing a blocked poke, holding G for a little while, then throwing in a JG input at the timing of their back-step catcher, often guaranteeing a launch. At close range, JGing to catch fast attacks will force the opponent to delay their attacks.

It is theory fighting; you're not taking account of what I mentioned earlier, baiting/predicting JG. It's very easy to substitute an immediate 'kill-step' with delays/predictions. Which this leads to even more theory fighting. So I'll step away from this.

I'm also well aware on how 'predict' JG works, I've implemented such tactics myself. Still isn't a solid answer/counter towards post-patch movement. However, I do agree, it can help. Hell, JGing effectively can help in your overall gameplay itself.

About baiting and predicting JG... how is this "just as effective as JGing"? Doing it the safe way, it's hardly any different from standing still for a long time, which you're having to do anyway. Run-up side-throw is the hardest you can really punish this with, and you still have the same risks as before... they could see you run in and press buttons to stop you.

Predict-JGing isn't that safe. There's still a window you can interrupt (i.e. Astaroth's 3KA/3K(A) mix up) or force a block (In a lot of cases, players will want this). And, as you did mention, grabs are huge anti-JG. Also, you're breaking this down into other metagames and I can't help feel like I'm being sucked into a, "Well, I could do this, then what?" debate.


The main point of this debate is how unsafe movement became post-patch. And I'm just saying, JGing isn't a solid counter for handling movement and implementing, as well..

 

[Xeph]

I personally think the BD distance is too small to be considered good enough to warrant the negative frames you get for trying it, but that's just me. Like Rikuto brushed on, you already have a disadvantage with a guard meter, so why not bring that more in to play? IMO, allowing players the ability to at least move forward and backward safely is more than viable because, even if they block and don't cause a whiff, they're still conceding the guard meter from blocking. But, again, that's just me.

It depends on which character is in discussion. Some characters have amazing backdash/stepping. Even in post patch, some characters backdash/Step allows them to move similarly via pre-patch. As I mentioned earlier, I'm upset that they made backdash so unsafe. However, backdash killers should do their job... and kill backdash. But, really? -20 for moving?

Step-G was a "get out of jail free card" in a lot of situations. However, shitting on movement, greatly, is a whole other problem itself. Meeting in the middle, and decreasing the negative frames on movement, but keeping it unsafe to an extent seems like the only way to solve this 'problem.'

 

[Signia]

It really comes down to this...

if you can't retreat safely, then every action you take within a certain range of your opponent is effectively rock paper scissors. If you backstep, you can be hit. if you sidestep, you could be hit. if you attack, you could be stepped/GI'd/just beaten out entirely. No player is psychic, you are always going to be guessing here.

This is basically the equivalent of saying backdash had no counter. Is this a good thing? For backdashing to never be a bad idea? For you to be unable to stop someone from backdashing if you knew they were going to? When an action is outside of any rock/paper/scissors situation, it's the same as saying it has no counter. Which is like saying it's overpowered... see where I'm getting at, here?

"...within a certain range" ... how about spacing outside that range? Perfect spacing is an excuse to have a safe out, as you probably had to spend frames adjusting your position. It's still possible, it's just not braindead easy anymore, short range characters can't do it as well and it can't be done easily against long range characters. You know, it works how it intuitively should.

Before I could at least argue that there were safe ways to probe your opponent out and see what their most likely reactions would be, and this could lead to an intelligent battle of wits. Poking somebody and then slightly backstepping out into guard while sacrificing some guard damage was a viable tactic to do this and you could recover from it.

That is no longer a viable option, and the nerf instead forces you to be in danger, all the time after the very first exchange happens unless both parties let each other back off at certain intervals.

Ok, so you want to be able to opt out of the guessing game whenever you want to in order to learn about your opponent.

The only game I know of that punishes someone for backstepping is DOA 4. If that game has become the gold standard for movement, I think we are having some problems here.

VF5:FS added CH property to hitting sidesteppers and a special fall-on-ass stun animation for catching a backdash. Oh, and you could never guard out of those ever in the series. I see this as a step in the right direction to make offensive styles just as strong as defensive styles, though SCV's backdash feels a bit too long right now. It'd be better if there were backdashes that couldn't be cancelled with guard and a slow backwalk that could be. That way, you could safely adjust spacing slightly but not overly so.

 

[Rikuto]

This is basically the equivalent of saying backdash had no counter. Is this a good thing? For backdashing to never be a bad idea? For you to be unable to stop someone from backdashing if you knew they were going to? When an action is outside of any rock/paper/scissors situation, it's the same as saying it has no counter. Which is like saying it's overpowered... see where I'm getting at, here?

The counter to backdash was rushdown with mid/low/throw mixup, supported with continuous guard damage pressure. All of these things could lead to your downfall, so there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The spacing meta game works like this.

Whiff punishment is layer 1 with both people playing footsies. When you know your opponent is going to wait for whiff punishment, you switch to rushdown (layer 2) and put them into a close range mixup. When they know you are trying to rushdown, they will start using keepout (layer 3) of quick, short range panic button options. When they start using keepout, you go back to whiff punishment (layer 1) by tricking them into using their keepout options prematurely and then punishing them for it.

At no point did any of this require a nerf to backstepping. If you want to keep someone intimidated at close range you put them in a legit frame trap when your rushdown window opens up. This backstep nonsense is basically just turning the game into easy mode for people.

"...within a certain range" ... how about spacing outside that range? Perfect spacing is an excuse to have a safe out, as you probably had to spend frames adjusting your position. It's still possible, it's just not braindead easy anymore, short range characters can't do it as well and it can't be done easily against long range characters. You know, it works how it intuitively should.

I'm Astaroth. From the moment the round starts I can hit you if you backdash. The only way you can get out of this range is if I let you, pure and simple. Does that sound like good gameplay to you?

Ok, so you want to be able to opt out of the guessing game whenever you want to in order to learn about your opponent.

I want to lessen the short term risk while allowing a bit of long-term guard damage to take place, yes. There is a reason they put guard breaks in the game.

Imagine if you were playing an RTS game and you were required to risk half of your standing army every time you sent a scout in to check out the enemy. Would that make any sense either? No. No it would not. I shouldn't have to risk half my lifebar either when I'm trying to probe out a basic reaction from my opponent at my safest range.

Fighting games ultimately come down to yomi and there have to be safe'ish ways to scout your enemies response. Otherwise you are gambling with everything 100% of the time.

VF5:FS added CH property to hitting sidesteppers and a special fall-on-ass stun animation for catching a backdash. Oh, and you could never guard out of those ever in the series. I see this as a step in the right direction to make offensive styles just as strong as defensive styles, though SCV's backdash feels a bit too long right now. It'd be better if there were backdashes that couldn't be cancelled with guard and a slow backwalk that could be. That way, you could safely adjust spacing slightly but not overly so.

Last time I played VF was back during VF4:Evo, so bare with me. I seem to remember the game giving you a lot more defensive options to play with though, and also being able to break every possible throw attempt your enemy had while sidestepping. I imagine under a system like that, counter-hits would indeed be in order to stop it from being too powerful of a system.

Another problem is that with VF, aside from a few exceptions most attacks are at pretty short range so spacing in general is a lot easier. You can't apply the same logic to a fight against someone like siegfried, mitsu, nightmare, asta, cervantes, aeon, etc.