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[RWB]

Despise may be a strong word, but his ruthlessness seems greater than most.

Not really. Liu Bei was just as ruthless, and to add to that, a treacherous man, betraying several people on his road to power.

Sun Quan once tried to burn one of his ministers(Zhang Zhao) house down because of a disagreement. He was also a dangerous drunk(to the degree that he even said: do not follow any order I may give while drunk). :P

I've read something along the lines of "this guy tried to oppose Cao Cao.
He failed and Cao Cao publicly executed him... and his entire family" many times. I understand killing the dude, I guess... But why kill his entire family?

It was the way you did back then. Heck, Cao Cao opted NOT to kill Lu Bu's family, instead taking them in and personally caring for them. And even then, most people questioned why he didn't.

It seems extremely brutal and unnecessary. I know he isn't the only one, but he has to be the one who did it the most.

It was done so that the other family members wouldn't seek revenge. Brutal, perhaps. Unnecessary? Far from it(at least according to everyone back then).

And no, he was among the few that actually refrained from doing it the most. Still did it a lot, though.

If you want brutality, his attack on Tao Qian is probably the worst he pulled. But to be fair, Tao Qian was an ***hole(one of the biggest of the era). He most likely also really did order the killing of Cao Cao's father(and Cao Cao was a very filial man). And unlike the novel, he was actually allied WITH Dong Zhuo, not against him.

I know he actually created a better society (one I would prefer to live in) and was a more effective leader than the majority of the others, though.

Nice to hear. Most people just go "But Liu Bei worked for the people!"

Honestly, it's probably mostly because for years it has been Cao Cao who has proved the biggest thorn in my side in the ROTTK games, lol. So I guess I despise his character in that game more so than the actually person.

Hehe. Well, that's kinda funny.

Just suggesting him as a candidate, though I know he wasn't the commander Sun Ce was. He wasn't a commander to be scoffed at either, though.

Most certainly not. He was the sole mind behind Chibi. He was also very loyal, seeing how the majority of Wu wanted him on the throne after Ce died, but he wouldn't allow it.

I am one of those that think he could have taken Xuchang... I wonder how differently things would have played out?

Very different. To begin with, Sun Ce would have a major part of China, and Cao Cao would be stuck between Yuan Shao at Guandu, and Sun Ce at home.

Not on par with Cao Cao? He defeated Cao Cao.

I know. I meant on par as a whole. Tactician-wise, he was among the best. Cao Cao outclassed him as an administrator and politician, and was a better commander.

When did Jia Xu lose a battle when his advice was heeded by his lord? I can't remember a single time, but I may have forgotten or not known. In my honest opinion, he's one of the best.

See above.

How was he lacking in the political area and yet a brilliant politician?

Because I wrote wrong and meant tactician? XD

The only major flaw that I've seen is that he is pretty arrogant (though has the skill to back it up) and that he doesn't consider that he could be suspected of treason. He assumes that since he is loyal, no one will question his loyalties. In the end, it was that that Zhong Hui exploited and used to kill him.

Yup.

Overall, I think he is a contender for at least one of the top 5 most brilliant minds of that era.
[/quote]

I would maybe not place him THAT high, but he's in the top ten for sure.

 

[Mage]

All I can say about this is that I'd reckon they'd go for the more iconic Dynasty Warriors such as Lu Bu, and perhaps the Three Kingdoms leaders (Liu Bei/Chan, Cao Cao/Pi and Sun Jian/Ce/Quan). Something tells me that if it was a Dynasty Warrior they would stay away from Lu Bu because in the romance of the Three Kingdoms, he dies very early in it so he'd be a possible no-no (I am a nerd too :P). I like to play as Zhuge Liang in every DW game I get, so I'd be happy if he was in (please give us Sun Ce as well, Namco!!).

As for Zhou Yu, he was a brilliant strategist but didn't match the brains and tactics of Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang, leading Wu to an early defeat at Yi Ling after betraying Shu and killing Guan Yu and his son, Guan Ping. Lu Xun was also a young but naive strategist just like Zhou Yu because although he succeeded in killing Guan Yu and later assassinating Zhang Fei; also gaining Fan Castle with Wei as their allies, Lu Xun failed to defeat Liu Bei at Yi Ling, although Liu Bei died a year later, with Liu Chan succeeding him as the Shu ruler. This proves him to be most unlikely to be a guest character in SCV, with my guesses that it will be a Shu and a Wei officer who will appear in SCV. IMO, Wu failed too often to win much battles, due to Lu Xun and Zhou Yu's betrayals to Shu, which I believe was the lead to their downfall.

 

[Habast]

Not really. Liu Bei was just as ruthless, and to add to that, a treacherous man, betraying several people on his road to power.

Sun Quan once tried to burn one of his ministers(Zhang Zhao) house down because of a disagreement. He was also a dangerous drunk(to the degree that he even said: do not follow any order I may give while drunk). :P

It was the way you did back then. Heck, Cao Cao opted NOT to kill Lu Bu's family, instead taking them in and personally caring for them. And even then, most people questioned why he didn't.

It was done so that the other family members wouldn't seek revenge. Brutal, perhaps. Unnecessary? Far from it(at least according to everyone back then).

And no, he was among the few that actually refrained from doing it the most. Still did it a lot, though.

If you want brutality, his attack on Tao Qian is probably the worst he pulled. But to be fair, Tao Qian was an ***hole(one of the biggest of the era). He most likely also really did order the killing of Cao Cao's father(and Cao Cao was a very filial man). And unlike the novel, he was actually allied WITH Dong Zhuo, not against him.

I actually didn't know Sun Quan tried to burn Zhang Zhao's house or that Tao Qian sided with Don Zhuo... It seems I'm still a bit behind in my Three Kingdoms knowledge XD

Nice to hear. Most people just go "But Liu Bei worked for the people!"

No, I knew that real life Liu Bei was kind of an ass. Though, unlike how he is often portrayed, he was an effective commander.

Very different. To begin with, Sun Ce would have a major part of China, and Cao Cao would be stuck between Yuan Shao at Guandu, and Sun Ce at home.

Yes. Yuan Shao FTW

I think that, if he hadn't lost his mind (unless that was only in the book?), that he would have beaten Cao Cao and gone on to be the powerhouse force in China.

Most certainly not. He was the sole mind behind Chibi. He was also very loyal, seeing how the majority of Wu wanted him on the throne after Ce died, but he wouldn't allow it.

He had also been planning on invading Liu Zhang to take all of southern China so that Sun Quan could stand against Cao Cao more effectively and allying with Zhang Lu and Ma Chao (who he had correctly predicted would oppose Cao Cao). Unfortunately, he died before he could carry out his plans.

If he had succeeded, even Cao Cao would be hard-pressed to face Sun Quan, Zhag Lu, and Ma Chao (and likely most of the survivors of Liu Bei's forces).

I know. I meant on par as a whole. Tactician-wise, he was among the best. Cao Cao outclassed him as an administrator and politician, and was a better commander.

That's true.

Because I wrote wrong and meant tactician? XD

XD I had wondered.

I would maybe not place him THAT high, but he's in the top ten for sure.

Fair enough. Just in reading the book and playing the games (though I haven't played DW7 yet), I guess I became a Deng Ai fan. It was awesome to see Jiang Wei so confident that he would win (and Xiahou Ba applauding his great ideas) and then seeing Deng Ai predict his movements and completely trounce him at every turn XD

On a side note, does he stutter in DW7? That'd be hilarious.

Something tells me that if it was a Dynasty Warrior they would stay away from Lu Bu because in the romance of the Three Kingdoms, he dies very early in it so he'd be a possible no-no (I am a nerd too :P).

Yay, nerds unite! :D

As for Zhou Yu, he was a brilliant strategist but didn't match the brains and tactics of Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang, leading Wu to an early defeat at Yi Ling after betraying Shu and killing Guan Yu and his son, Guan Ping.

It was Lu Meng that killed Guan Yu. Zhou Yu had died long before that due to unfortunate war injuries (I believe). Also, Wu won the battle of Yi Ling.

Lu Xun was also a young but naive strategist just like Zhou Yu because although he succeeded in killing Guan Yu and later assassinating Zhang Fei; also gaining Fan Castle with Wei as their allies, Lu Xun failed to defeat Liu Bei at Yi Ling, although Liu Bei died a year later, with Liu Chan succeeding him as the Shu ruler. This proves him to be most unlikely to be a guest character in SCV, with my guesses that it will be a Shu and a Wei officer who will appear in SCV. IMO, Wu failed too often to win much battles, due to Lu Xun and Zhou Yu's betrayals to Shu, which I believe was the lead to their downfall.

Lu Meng led the battle against Guan Yu. I'm not sure about Zhang Fei, I had thought he was killed by his own troops while he slept? I'm not 100% on that, though.

Lu Xun won the battle of Yi Ling, which is what he holds most of his acclaim for.

 

[RWB]

As for Zhou Yu, he was a brilliant strategist but didn't match the brains and tactics of Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang, leading Wu to an early defeat at Yi Ling after betraying Shu and killing Guan Yu and his son, Guan Ping.

Zhou Yu was dead at this point. Lu Meng was the one to kill the Guans. Yi Ling was a resounding victory for Wu, spearheaded by Lu Xun.

In achievements, Zhou Yu's definitely on the same level as Zhuge Liang, Cao Zhen and Sima Yi, considering he was part of the reason for Sun Ce's success as well.

Lu Xun was also a young but naive strategist just like Zhou Yu because although he succeeded in killing Guan Yu and later assassinating Zhang Fei; also gaining Fan Castle with Wei as their allies,

Lu Meng. Also, Zhang Fei was killed by his own men because his mistreatment of them- he was known to be a very cruel man.

Lu Xun failed to defeat Liu Bei at Yi Ling,

Wrong. Liu Bei was beaten and retreated to Baidi castle, where he died.

IMO, Wu failed too often to win much battles, due to Lu Xun and Zhou Yu's betrayals to Shu, which I believe was the lead to their downfall.

Yes. Wei was only defeatable with a united front, seeing how they held over half the land, over half the resources, and had, on the whole, more troops than the other two combined. But the betrayals were on Sun Quan, not the others.

No, I knew that real life Liu Bei was kind of an ass. Though, unlike how he is often portrayed, he was an effective commander.

Very much so, one of the best. He's likely another of the top ten I noted.

Yes. Yuan Shao FTW

I think that, if he hadn't lost his mind (unless that was only in the book?), that he would have beaten Cao Cao and gone on to be the powerhouse force in China.

He had gone senile, in actual history. Yuan Shao was 58 at the time(died at 60). And yes, considering his massive power at the time, he'd likely press right down into the not yet stable(after Sun Ce's death) "Wu", where only Zhou Yu could plausibly stop him.

Had not Sun Ce been assassinated, and Yuan Shao not gone senile... I think we'd be talking "The Two kingdoms" today. Sun Ce would have won when Yuan Shao died, and his sons squabbled for power. Then again, it might have had Liu and Cao fleeing to the same place, in which case a third, VERY dangerous faction would appear.

He had also been planning on invading Liu Zhang to take all of southern China so that Sun Quan could stand against Cao Cao more effectively and allying with Zhang Lu and Ma Chao (who he had correctly predicted would oppose Cao Cao). Unfortunately, he died before he could carry out his plans.

Indeed. I'd say he was superior to the ones who succeeded his spot in Wu, except possibly the arguably most brilliant politician of the era Lu Su- who in the book was reduced to a bumbling fool(historically, he was amazing, and purely military-wise, was the first to think of the Three Kingdom "plan" ).

If he had succeeded, even Cao Cao would be hard-pressed to face Sun Quan, Zhag Lu, and Ma Chao (and likely most of the survivors of Liu Bei's forces).

It would pretty much be a dead even situation.

XD I had wondered.

Fair enough. Just in reading the book and playing the games (though I haven't played DW7 yet), I guess I became a Deng Ai fan. It was awesome to see Jiang Wei so confident that he would win (and Xiahou Ba applauding his great ideas) and then seeing Deng Ai predict his movements and completely trounce him at every turn XD

So true. He's one of my favorite novel characters- the part where Jiang Wei beats general Deng is awesome- he thinks it's Deng Ai, but it's actually Deng Zhong, his son.

On a side note, does he stutter in DW7? That'd be hilarious.

Sadly no. However, he is a huge hulking brute... who's also a bloody genius. XD

Yay, nerds unite! :D

Word, man.

 

[Mage]

I thought that Lu Xun drove Liu Bei back but I'm sure Zhuge Liang arrived with reinforcements that pushed back the Wu forces' advance; therefore giving Liu Bei a chance to retreat to Baidi Castle where he eventually died the next year, leaving the Shu Kingdom to his son, Liu Chan (who, I have to say, was a fail, lol). What I was trying to say before was that Lu Xun failed to kill Liu Bei at Yiling, sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for the battle of Chibi I am sure that when Cao Cao retreated the Shu/Wu alliance gave chase and killed many of Cao Cao's troops although Cao Cao still escaped. Wu took Jiangliang off of Cao Cao's hands due to Zhou Yu's efforts; and Zhuge Liang led Liu Bei to the Yi province, where Liu Zhang requested to join forces and defend Hanzhong from Cao Cao together. Liu Bei accepted this request but only so he could take the Yi province for himself. Going to Yi province with Liu Zhang thinking that Liu Bei was on his side, Liu Bei attacked and defeated Liu Zhang, taking the Yi province for his own.

I am sure what I have said so far is true; please correct me if I am wrong.